USCHO Fan Forum
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
The USCHO Fan Forum has migrated to a new plaform, xenForo. Most of the function of the forum should work in familiar ways. Please note that you can switch between light and dark modes by clicking on the gear icon in the upper right of the main menu bar. We are hoping that this new platform will prove to be faster and more reliable. Please feel free to explore its features.
Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet
- Thread starter Old Pio
- Start date
- Status
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet
"Sometimes if you want to get rid of the gun, you have to pick the gun up."
"Sometimes if you want to get rid of the gun, you have to pick the gun up."
johnnypohlfan
New member
Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet
You're in so far over your head here, buddy, it's just flat-out amusing to watch you drown.
You're in so far over your head here, buddy, it's just flat-out amusing to watch you drown.
trixR4kids
New member
Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet
Not really, a lot of people believe in some type of "just world theorem" nonsense and assume that anyone who gets tear gassed or arrested obviously did something wrong.
Not really, a lot of people believe in some type of "just world theorem" nonsense and assume that anyone who gets tear gassed or arrested obviously did something wrong.
Last edited:
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet
Interesting data from 538. For full context I'd like to see it compared to other public service sectors, like fire fighters, trashmen, DMV workers, etc.
Interesting data from 538. For full context I'd like to see it compared to other public service sectors, like fire fighters, trashmen, DMV workers, etc.
Slap Shot
I got nothing
I don't think I've ever demonstrated such a shortsighted mindset.
Likewise you assumed the cop was guilty from the get go, right?
trixR4kids
New member
Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet
Given what the eyewitnesses saw, the autopsy, the location of the body etc., I think the cop may have been negligent in his handling of this. That's the only non-biased info we have (Dorian Johnson is biased but the other two not so much). Admittedly it's not much but it's not like one can't possibly form an opinion based on that info.
This is a good post.
Given what the eyewitnesses saw, the autopsy, the location of the body etc., I think the cop may have been negligent in his handling of this. That's the only non-biased info we have (Dorian Johnson is biased but the other two not so much). Admittedly it's not much but it's not like one can't possibly form an opinion based on that info.
This is a good post.
Last edited:
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet
I don't even think it's that (though certainly the "just world assumption" is the root of a lot of dumb thinking). I think of it this way: if you're white and middle class, if you have a run in with the cops then something really unusual probably has happened. Either you're the snotty student stoner or the snotty student protester or you're speeding or you're being interviewed as a witness because you happened to be walking by when the city water main burst and flooded the Chipotle. There is no reason for you to associate police with threatening behavior because it doesn't happen to you.
But the experience or poor and/or minority people appears, based on what they say, to be very different. They have no trouble wrapping their minds around the idea that a policeman might harass them for driving while black, or hanging out on a street corner, or shopping in an expensive store.
White, middle class people give the benefit of the doubt to the cops because within our experience that's a perfectly rational thing to do. But our experience does not map to that of other people. You don't even need "bad cops" to create this discrepancy; all you need is cops who are trying to break up potentially dangerous or illegal activities, probably in neighborhoods that have a high crime rate, and going by a particular class and race profile (which also happens to be the profile that matches most people who live there). That results in lots of false positives.
I don't even think it's that (though certainly the "just world assumption" is the root of a lot of dumb thinking). I think of it this way: if you're white and middle class, if you have a run in with the cops then something really unusual probably has happened. Either you're the snotty student stoner or the snotty student protester or you're speeding or you're being interviewed as a witness because you happened to be walking by when the city water main burst and flooded the Chipotle. There is no reason for you to associate police with threatening behavior because it doesn't happen to you.
But the experience or poor and/or minority people appears, based on what they say, to be very different. They have no trouble wrapping their minds around the idea that a policeman might harass them for driving while black, or hanging out on a street corner, or shopping in an expensive store.
White, middle class people give the benefit of the doubt to the cops because within our experience that's a perfectly rational thing to do. But our experience does not map to that of other people. You don't even need "bad cops" to create this discrepancy; all you need is cops who are trying to break up potentially dangerous or illegal activities, probably in neighborhoods that have a high crime rate, and going by a particular class and race profile (which also happens to be the profile that matches most people who live there). That results in lots of false positives.
Last edited:
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet
I'm sure you're right, but what you're saying risks that fallacy. It's a sort of false equivalency: "well, on the one hand the citizen says he was doing nothing but on the other hand so does every criminal, so it's a wash." I don't think it's a wash -- I think the odds, in any sample with < 50% criminals, favor the citizen.
I'm sure you're right, but what you're saying risks that fallacy. It's a sort of false equivalency: "well, on the one hand the citizen says he was doing nothing but on the other hand so does every criminal, so it's a wash." I don't think it's a wash -- I think the odds, in any sample with < 50% criminals, favor the citizen.
Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet
Me, my brother and father - 81 years combined, no shots fired. I came closest with a guy that wanted suicide by cop, but we were able to subdue him.
On the other hand, an ex-relative shot and killed two men in seperate incidents. Just a roll of the dice.
Me, my brother and father - 81 years combined, no shots fired. I came closest with a guy that wanted suicide by cop, but we were able to subdue him.
On the other hand, an ex-relative shot and killed two men in seperate incidents. Just a roll of the dice.
G
Gurtholfin
Guest
Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet
Somehow you jumped from someone who says they didn't do anything (when they did) to everyone that says they didn't do anything must be guilty of what they said they didn't do if you're going to believe the first part about anyone.
Awfully big leap there.
Somehow you jumped from someone who says they didn't do anything (when they did) to everyone that says they didn't do anything must be guilty of what they said they didn't do if you're going to believe the first part about anyone.
Awfully big leap there.
trixR4kids
New member
Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet
Well part of the problem is
Which makes it seem like that's what he was arguing. Obviously given the plight of the central character I doubt that's what he's arguing but there are a lot of people out there who do think along the lines of the just world assumption.
Well part of the problem is
Which makes it seem like that's what he was arguing. Obviously given the plight of the central character I doubt that's what he's arguing but there are a lot of people out there who do think along the lines of the just world assumption.
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet
Yes, that was my point. It's a formal fallacy, although I think it's actually a different fallacy: "All bears are mammals, therefore all mammals are bears." Dangit, I have completely forgotten which syllogistic rule that violates. It's here, somewhere.
Yes, that was my point. It's a formal fallacy, although I think it's actually a different fallacy: "All bears are mammals, therefore all mammals are bears." Dangit, I have completely forgotten which syllogistic rule that violates. It's here, somewhere.
Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet
You've hit the nail on the head. We always made sure people knew we meant business. Did we sometimes verbally take it to his level? Hell yeah if the situation demanded it. The difference was that I/we had a PR24 defender nightstick in our hands, not an MP4 or similar firearm.
You've hit the nail on the head. We always made sure people knew we meant business. Did we sometimes verbally take it to his level? Hell yeah if the situation demanded it. The difference was that I/we had a PR24 defender nightstick in our hands, not an MP4 or similar firearm.
Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet
We motorcycle cops are not to be messed with!
G
Gurtholfin
Guest
Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet
No, it's not. It's reality. It's human nature to deny wrong-doing or minimize what he/she may have done to contribute to a situation.
Just because a guilty person will reflexively profess innocence doesn't mean that everyone professing innocence is guilty.
Who would make that logical leap?
No, it's not. It's reality. It's human nature to deny wrong-doing or minimize what he/she may have done to contribute to a situation.
Just because a guilty person will reflexively profess innocence doesn't mean that everyone professing innocence is guilty.
Who would make that logical leap?
G
Gurtholfin
Guest
Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet
Yeah, but you guys shouldn't be taking jobs from those drug-sniffing dogs.
We motorcycle cops are not to be messed with!
Yeah, but you guys shouldn't be taking jobs from those drug-sniffing dogs.
unofan
Well-known member
Seriously? You've never heard people say things along the lines of "why'd he (lawyer up, protest so much, etc.) if he's innocent?"
St. Clown
Ideas Posted are Likely Not My Own
Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet
A little more fuel for the fire: http://www.wjla.com/articles/2014/08/ferguson-police-officer-darren-wilson---who-shot-michael-brown---had-serious-facial-injury-source-sa.html
Unless we or, more importantly, the courts can see pictorial evidence of these facial wounds, it's all rumor and hear-say, and given how information has come from the PD on this, I'm not completely sold until there is irrefutable evidence. If Wilson had been struck like that, the outcome for Michael Brown shouldn't surprise anyone and will cast great amounts of doubt and suspision onto Brown's friend who's been telling avery different story.
A little more fuel for the fire: http://www.wjla.com/articles/2014/08/ferguson-police-officer-darren-wilson---who-shot-michael-brown---had-serious-facial-injury-source-sa.html
Unless we or, more importantly, the courts can see pictorial evidence of these facial wounds, it's all rumor and hear-say, and given how information has come from the PD on this, I'm not completely sold until there is irrefutable evidence. If Wilson had been struck like that, the outcome for Michael Brown shouldn't surprise anyone and will cast great amounts of doubt and suspision onto Brown's friend who's been telling avery different story.
- Status