Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

[Handyman]

Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

Imagine if he'd been dealing smack. Even in CO, I assume that is at least 5 years for a first offense.

Or imagine he was a basketball player instead of a lilly white frat******...

 

[The Rube]

Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

Or imagine he was a basketball player instead of a lilly white frat******...

This is the sh* that gives whitey a bad name. This puke....I won't even say what I think needs to be done to him.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

This is the sh* that gives whitey a bad name. This puke....I won't even say what I think needs to be done to him.

I will, he should do some hard time in maximum security prison. (gen pop...no solitary) 2-3 years of that and my guess is he will be rehabilitated real good.

Look I am all for worrying about whether the damage of the sentence will be too high for the crime committed but that is a bunch of malarkey in cases like this. He didnt score some coke or kite some checks HE RAPED AN UNCONSCIOUS GIRL! I will repeat HE. RAPED. AN. UNCONSCIOUS. GIRL!!! She turned him down, she got wasted and he told her friends he would take care of her only to violate her. He couldnt handle she wasnt into him so he planned out a scenario, got the opening he needed and raped her. He had his day in court, the jury didnt buy his BS story and he deserves a harsh penalty. Not death or being "fixed" but some serious time in a max prison and a lifetime on the sex offender registry. Just because stuff like this is funny in a movie like Animal House or Revenge of the Nerds doesnt mean it is acceptable in the real world and how he will be impacted ranks about 1000000000th on the list of things to consider.

And if that is the system we have then it needs to be fixed and fast because all it does is embolden these date rapists to continue to do it and make it harder and harder for victims to find the strength to come forward. What does it say about the system when a girl gets raped, the dude gets convicted and he walks away basically unscathed? Why should she seek justice when all that is going to happen is she will have her shame blasted all over the place and people will worry about her attackers feelings as much as hers?

But there I go again, glossing over the details.

 

[The Rube]

Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

I will, he should do some hard time in maximum security prison. (gen pop...no solitary) 2-3 years of that and my guess is he will be rehabilitated real good.

Look I am all for worrying about whether the damage of the sentence will be too high for the crime committed but that is a bunch of malarkey in cases like this. He didnt score some coke or kite some checks HE RAPED AN UNCONSCIOUS GIRL! I will repeat HE. RAPED. AN. UNCONSCIOUS. GIRL!!! She turned him down, she got wasted and he told her friends he would take care of her only to violate her. He couldnt handle she wasnt into him so he planned out a scenario, got the opening he needed and raped her. He had his day in court, the jury didnt buy his BS story and he deserves a harsh penalty. Not death or being "fixed" but some serious time in a max prison and a lifetime on the sex offender registry. Just because stuff like this is funny in a movie like Animal House or Revenge of the Nerds doesnt mean it is acceptable in the real world and how he will be impacted ranks about 1000000000th on the list of things to consider.

And if that is the system we have then it needs to be fixed and fast because all it does is embolden these date rapists to continue to do it and make it harder and harder for victims to find the strength to come forward. What does it say about the system when a girl gets raped, the dude gets convicted and he walks away basically unscathed? Why should she seek justice when all that is going to happen is she will have her shame blasted all over the place and people will worry about her attackers feelings as much as hers?

But there I go again, glossing over the details.

I'll say that you are being too nice to this *er. My punishment is very illegal, maybe even for corrupt 3rd world countries.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

Well...I agree with you but we live within a system and I abide by it. Lets be honest...you put Daterape McWhiteson in Gen Pop for 3 years as a date rapist and that is 1000 days of him ****ing his pants scared out of his wits. When he gets out and his life is in ruins and he has to start all over while also living under the restrictions of sex offender registry he will begin to know the damage he has caused. Not to mention his Dudebro McRapy friends will think twice before raping...

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

Well...I agree with you but we live within a system and I abide by it. Lets be honest...you put Daterape McWhiteson in Gen Pop for 3 years as a date rapist and that is 1000 days of him ****ing his pants scared out of his wits. When he gets out and his life is in ruins and he has to start all over while also living under the restrictions of sex offender registry he will begin to know the damage he has caused. Not to mention his Dudebro McRapy friends will think twice before raping...

So I'm curious. The general purposes of a sentence in a criminal case are retribution, incapacitation, deterrence and rehabilitation. Obviously by locking him up and throwing away the key we cover incapacitation. Your friends in Gen Pop will apparently cover retribution for you, and all of those will by your account deter his bros. Where does rehabilitation fit in for you, or is that just something else you give lip service to?

 

[Handyman]

Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

So I'm curious. The general purposes of a sentence in a criminal case are retribution, incapacitation, deterrence and rehabilitation. Obviously by locking him up and throwing away the key we cover incapacitation. Your friends in Gen Pop will apparently cover retribution for you, and all of those will by your account deter his bros. Where does rehabilitation fit in for you, or is that just something else you give lip service to?

I dont want that kind of retribution, I am not asking for him to be accosted or hurt, I want him scared. The retribution is that he will spend the rest of his life on the registry. The rehabilitation comes from him being scared straight. I want him to never want to go back to prison THAT is where rehab comes in.

So what is your solution Mr. Accusatory Tone? Can I not turn your argument into a complete indictment of the criminal justice system as a whole? It isnt like recidivism rates arent high...obviously the "rehab" portion you seem so hell bent on pointing out (I assume you are anti death penalty since you cant rehab the dead right?) is failing pretty badly. Should we just abolish the jailing system as a whole? Why do I get the feeling you arent for that in any way? So why make your stand here? Why is this kid so different and why does he deserve leniency where others dont? Is it cause he only screwed a drunk girl and didnt hold a knife to her throat? What he did is a violation of the highest order...

How about instead of standing up on your soapbox and pointing your finger at everyone who feels the kid was given a gift he doesnt deserve you pull your pants out of your crack and actually try and have a discussion. No one in here is attacking you or your opinion (I did just now but only to prove a point) so why are you so bent out of shape? Why do you assume you know what I want or how I feel because I posted an article and said I think that it is wrong? I never said I wanted him to be beaten or raped (nor did anyone though Brent kind of implied it) I never said the judge should be fired or attacked, I said the judge was wrong. If the judge was following the guidelines than guess what THE FLIPPING GUIDELINES ARE WRONG! I want them changed, guess how you do that, express outrage over them. Funny how that works...

Maybe you dont agree and that is fine, but from where some of us are sitting there is definitely a massive disconnect going on. Why is a violent crime...a friggin rape...not being punished harder? There are people caught with dime bags of weed that serve harder time than this kid. That sticks in my craw. There are very few crimes that I have zero tolerance for...rape is in the Top 2. He was convicted, as such he should be punished accordingly. The problem is he didnt do it by pulling a knife or a gun on a girl, he waited for her to pass out and couldnt stop him. He doesnt even have the balls to use his strength against her...he is an impotent little puke who could only rape a defenseless person. Problem is there is a still a culture "Date rape is lesser than" and that needs to change. Why is the impact of his CHOSEN ACTION (he wasnt fooled into raping her, she didnt lead him on he admitted she rebuffed him he is a friggin predator) on himself given as much weight as the impact on the victim? There is no logic behind it he forfeits that when he does what he did.

Go ahead, have at it. Put on your outrage hat (you might want to pick a better person to defend though...just saying) and try and prove to me that I am somehow some neanderthal vigilante looking for blood despite saying multiple times I want nothing of the sort. Pretend I am some internet justice warrior looking to get the judge disbarred and the lawyers drawn and quartered in the town square even though I never did close to that.

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

I dont want that kind of retribution, I am not asking for him to be accosted or hurt, I want him scared.

You're too PC to admit what you really want. Deep inside you wish you lived in a world where someone like Frank Castle, or maybe Jim Corrigan, would visit with him.

 

[Handyman]

You're too PC to admit what you really want. Deep inside you wish you lived in a world where someone like Frank Castle, or maybe Jim Corrigan, would visit with him.

The idea makes me smile but no I really don't. I'm not an eye for an eye guy.

 

[The Rube]

Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

The idea makes me smile but no I really don't. I'm not an eye for an eye guy.

In cases of rape/child molestation, I am. I am not ashamed to admit it. If that makes me a bad person, so be it.

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

I dont want that kind of retribution, I am not asking for him to be accosted or hurt, I want him scared. The retribution is that he will spend the rest of his life on the registry. The rehabilitation comes from him being scared straight. I want him to never want to go back to prison THAT is where rehab comes in.

So what is your solution Mr. Accusatory Tone? Can I not turn your argument into a complete indictment of the criminal justice system as a whole? It isnt like recidivism rates arent high...obviously the "rehab" portion you seem so hell bent on pointing out (I assume you are anti death penalty since you cant rehab the dead right?) is failing pretty badly. Should we just abolish the jailing system as a whole? Why do I get the feeling you arent for that in any way? So why make your stand here? Why is this kid so different and why does he deserve leniency where others dont? Is it cause he only screwed a drunk girl and didnt hold a knife to her throat? What he did is a violation of the highest order...

How about instead of standing up on your soapbox and pointing your finger at everyone who feels the kid was given a gift he doesnt deserve you pull your pants out of your crack and actually try and have a discussion. No one in here is attacking you or your opinion (I did just now but only to prove a point) so why are you so bent out of shape? Why do you assume you know what I want or how I feel because I posted an article and said I think that it is wrong? I never said I wanted him to be beaten or raped (nor did anyone though Brent kind of implied it) I never said the judge should be fired or attacked, I said the judge was wrong. If the judge was following the guidelines than guess what THE FLIPPING GUIDELINES ARE WRONG! I want them changed, guess how you do that, express outrage over them. Funny how that works...

Maybe you dont agree and that is fine, but from where some of us are sitting there is definitely a massive disconnect going on. Why is a violent crime...a friggin rape...not being punished harder? There are people caught with dime bags of weed that serve harder time than this kid. That sticks in my craw. There are very few crimes that I have zero tolerance for...rape is in the Top 2. He was convicted, as such he should be punished accordingly. The problem is he didnt do it by pulling a knife or a gun on a girl, he waited for her to pass out and couldnt stop him. He doesnt even have the balls to use his strength against her...he is an impotent little puke who could only rape a defenseless person. Problem is there is a still a culture "Date rape is lesser than" and that needs to change. Why is the impact of his CHOSEN ACTION (he wasnt fooled into raping her, she didnt lead him on he admitted she rebuffed him he is a friggin predator) on himself given as much weight as the impact on the victim? There is no logic behind it he forfeits that when he does what he did.

Go ahead, have at it. Put on your outrage hat (you might want to pick a better person to defend though...just saying) and try and prove to me that I am somehow some neanderthal vigilante looking for blood despite saying multiple times I want nothing of the sort. Pretend I am some internet justice warrior looking to get the judge disbarred and the lawyers drawn and quartered in the town square even though I never did close to that.

\mic drop

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

I dont want that kind of retribution, I am not asking for him to be accosted or hurt, I want him scared. The retribution is that he will spend the rest of his life on the registry. The rehabilitation comes from him being scared straight. I want him to never want to go back to prison THAT is where rehab comes in.

So what is your solution Mr. Accusatory Tone? Can I not turn your argument into a complete indictment of the criminal justice system as a whole? It isnt like recidivism rates arent high...obviously the "rehab" portion you seem so hell bent on pointing out (I assume you are anti death penalty since you cant rehab the dead right?) is failing pretty badly. Should we just abolish the jailing system as a whole? Why do I get the feeling you arent for that in any way? So why make your stand here? Why is this kid so different and why does he deserve leniency where others dont? Is it cause he only screwed a drunk girl and didnt hold a knife to her throat? What he did is a violation of the highest order...

How about instead of standing up on your soapbox and pointing your finger at everyone who feels the kid was given a gift he doesnt deserve you pull your pants out of your crack and actually try and have a discussion. No one in here is attacking you or your opinion (I did just now but only to prove a point) so why are you so bent out of shape? Why do you assume you know what I want or how I feel because I posted an article and said I think that it is wrong? I never said I wanted him to be beaten or raped (nor did anyone though Brent kind of implied it) I never said the judge should be fired or attacked, I said the judge was wrong. If the judge was following the guidelines than guess what THE FLIPPING GUIDELINES ARE WRONG! I want them changed, guess how you do that, express outrage over them. Funny how that works...

Maybe you dont agree and that is fine, but from where some of us are sitting there is definitely a massive disconnect going on. Why is a violent crime...a friggin rape...not being punished harder? There are people caught with dime bags of weed that serve harder time than this kid. That sticks in my craw. There are very few crimes that I have zero tolerance for...rape is in the Top 2. He was convicted, as such he should be punished accordingly. The problem is he didnt do it by pulling a knife or a gun on a girl, he waited for her to pass out and couldnt stop him. He doesnt even have the balls to use his strength against her...he is an impotent little puke who could only rape a defenseless person. Problem is there is a still a culture "Date rape is lesser than" and that needs to change. Why is the impact of his CHOSEN ACTION (he wasnt fooled into raping her, she didnt lead him on he admitted she rebuffed him he is a friggin predator) on himself given as much weight as the impact on the victim? There is no logic behind it he forfeits that when he does what he did.

Go ahead, have at it. Put on your outrage hat (you might want to pick a better person to defend though...just saying) and try and prove to me that I am somehow some neanderthal vigilante looking for blood despite saying multiple times I want nothing of the sort. Pretend I am some internet justice warrior looking to get the judge disbarred and the lawyers drawn and quartered in the town square even though I never did close to that.

I don't think you'll see any post by me defending rape or rapists. It's a terrible crime and deserves punishment. I was prompted to respond to your post (and similar posts made by others) for a couple of reasons.

First, I found it amusing that people who have so much sympathy for the physical assault that goes to the very being of the rape victim, can be so flippant about similar assaults as a form of justice to the perp, once incarcerated, but I see you have now retreated from that, somewhat.

Second, I personally think we have too much of "lock them up and throw away the key" attitude in this country without thinking about whether its possible to take someone who has committed a foul, evil deed and not only "scare them straight" as you propose for their rehabilitation, but actually turn them into a productive member of society. I agree we have people serving unconscionable sentences for drug offenses. That doesn't justify doing the same for other types of crimes. So we scare this 20 year old kid straight with multiple years in a cell with other criminals. Now what? We let him out with a felony conviction, we literally brand him with Jean Valjean like papers as he goes city to city and the scarlet "R". But have we addressed the mental health issues that obviously exist?

Finally, and maybe this is the thing that most annoys me about posts like your original one, is the arm-chair quarterbacking. People sit in front of their computers or on their phones reading a Deadspin report on a rape sentencing thousands of miles away, and immediately the bile starts building up.

I don't know the exact numbers, but it wouldn't surprise me if there were 20,000+ rape convictions a year in this country. That would mean something like an average of 75 a day that the courts are open. Do you read articles on all those? Do the news outlets cover them when someone gets sentenced to 5 years or 10 years or whatever for rape? Nope. Just a short blurb buried in the local paper. What you hear about are the two a year where the news columnist/blogger feels like the sentence is outside the ordinary, and thus newsworthy. You read that story as filtered by them.

If I had the time, I'd propose an interesting challenge for you. You find links to stories where the rapist goes free, with no jail time, following a conviction, and I'll find stories where they are sentenced to prison, and we'll each share the links here. How do you think you'll come out on that?

Every time I read one of these stories that seems to be outside of the perceived norm, my first thought is not outrage, but more "I wonder what really happened in that case." I wonder what it was that the judge saw or heard that caused him to rule that way. I wonder what evidence the jury heard. I wonder what was in that pre-sentence investigation report. I'd encourage you to do the same. The judge, who was actually there, who heard the testimony, who listened to the victims statement, who read the police reports, who read the pre-sentence investigation report, who heard from the attorneys, who studied the law of that state, and who maybe even heard from the perpetrator, reached the decision he did. I'm going to guess that he was just a little bit better informed than those of us reading two paragraphs about it a thousand miles away.

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

I believe we should hold a trial before we lynch rapists. That makes me a moderate.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

I don't think you'll see any post by me defending rape or rapists. It's a terrible crime and deserves punishment. I was prompted to respond to your post (and similar posts made by others) for a couple of reasons.

First, I found it amusing that people who have so much sympathy for the physical assault that goes to the very being of the rape victim, can be so flippant about similar assaults as a form of justice to the perp, once incarcerated, but I see you have now retreated from that, somewhat.

Second, I personally think we have too much of "lock them up and throw away the key" attitude in this country without thinking about whether its possible to take someone who has committed a foul, evil deed and not only "scare them straight" as you propose for their rehabilitation, but actually turn them into a productive member of society. I agree we have people serving unconscionable sentences for drug offenses. That doesn't justify doing the same for other types of crimes. So we scare this 20 year old kid straight with multiple years in a cell with other criminals. Now what? We let him out with a felony conviction, we literally brand him with Jean Valjean like papers as he goes city to city and the scarlet "R". But have we addressed the mental health issues that obviously exist?

Finally, and maybe this is the thing that most annoys me about posts like your original one, is the arm-chair quarterbacking. People sit in front of their computers or on their phones reading a Deadspin report on a rape sentencing thousands of miles away, and immediately the bile starts building up.

I don't know the exact numbers, but it wouldn't surprise me if there were 20,000+ rape convictions a year in this country. That would mean something like an average of 75 a day that the courts are open. Do you read articles on all those? Do the news outlets cover them when someone gets sentenced to 5 years or 10 years or whatever for rape? Nope. Just a short blurb buried in the local paper. What you hear about are the two a year where the news columnist/blogger feels like the sentence is outside the ordinary, and thus newsworthy. You read that story as filtered by them.

If I had the time, I'd propose an interesting challenge for you. You find links to stories where the rapist goes free, with no jail time, following a conviction, and I'll find stories where they are sentenced to prison, and we'll each share the links here. How do you think you'll come out on that?

Every time I read one of these stories that seems to be outside of the perceived norm, my first thought is not outrage, but more "I wonder what really happened in that case." I wonder what it was that the judge saw or heard that caused him to rule that way. I wonder what evidence the jury heard. I wonder what was in that pre-sentence investigation report. I'd encourage you to do the same. The judge, who was actually there, who heard the testimony, who listened to the victims statement, who read the police reports, who read the pre-sentence investigation report, who heard from the attorneys, who studied the law of that state, and who maybe even heard from the perpetrator, reached the decision he did. I'm going to guess that he was just a little bit better informed than those of us reading two paragraphs about it a thousand miles away.

First of all, I am not flippant toward any assault including in prison. It makes for a funny joke but violent crime is wrong no matter the setting.

Second, yes we do lock up too many people. I would be all for less of that...but dont pretend that is what is at issue here. When lesser crimes like drug possession can get people jail time violent crime for sure should. Fix the first part, then we can discuss the second. And sorry but the rest of this paragraph is full on BS. Why is it I never see anyone claiming all this stuff about the criminal justice system in other cases? Again, why is this kid your poster boy?

Third, the facts of the case were laid out. He was flipping convicted. We know what he did based on the testimony he and others gave. There is zero ambiguity, he screwed a drunk girl while she was passed out knowing full well she could not consent. As I said, if the law says this is what he should get the law is wrong. I have the right to think that, we think laws are wrong all the time. Maybe it is armchair qbing, but we arent wrong for doing it anymore than you are questioning a government law or others the ruling of the Supreme Court.

And lastly, yes, in the majority of cases the right sentence was handed down. That is wonderful...that doesnt make critically analyzing the ones that are abnormal any less relevant and you know it. The only way to fix the problem is to examine the cracks

(I appreciate the much less accusatory response thank you )

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

First of all, I am not flippant toward any assault including in prison. It makes for a funny joke but violent crime is wrong no matter the setting.

Second, yes we do lock up too many people. I would be all for less of that...but dont pretend that is what is at issue here. When lesser crimes like drug possession can get people jail time violent crime for sure should. Fix the first part, then we can discuss the second. And sorry but the rest of this paragraph is full on BS. Why is it I never see anyone claiming all this stuff about the criminal justice system in other cases? Again, why is this kid your poster boy?

Third, the facts of the case were laid out. He was flipping convicted. We know what he did based on the testimony he and others gave. There is zero ambiguity, he screwed a drunk girl while she was passed out knowing full well she could not consent. As I said, if the law says this is what he should get the law is wrong. I have the right to think that, we think laws are wrong all the time. Maybe it is armchair qbing, but we arent wrong for doing it anymore than you are questioning a government law or others the ruling of the Supreme Court.

And lastly, yes, in the majority of cases the right sentence was handed down. That is wonderful...that doesnt make critically analyzing the ones that are abnormal any less relevant and you know it. The only way to fix the problem is to examine the cracks

(I appreciate the much less accusatory response thank you )

This kid isn't my poster boy. He just happens to be the kid whose case has been posted about in this thread.

My comments regarding this kid's case center around concern that I have that we are making mistakes in terms of how we handle sex offender type cases in this country, similar to mistakes we made decades ago regarding drug crimes.

As a country we bought into this notion that we need to lock up drug offenders at an extraordinary rate, and for inhumane periods of time. I don't know whether people were just concerned about the threats to their own kids, if people were concerned about the additional crimes that seem to follow drug use, or what. But it completely ignored the underlying problem and reason why people commit those offenses.

Twenty years ago we started doing the same with these people we label "predators." Not only did we incarcerate them, but then we either literally brand them with the dreaded "registered sex offender" label and/or we just keep them incarcerated long past the end of their sentence under some vague civil commitment standard and belief everyone is at risk if they are released.

I don't know what the answers are, but I know the system is broken. I personally know someone who is now in that system. He is the husband of one of my employees. A terrific man. I knew him 25 years before the incident that gave rise to his conviction. You couldn't find someone who would say a bad word about him. But he was accused by an eight year old girl of touching her inappropriately, outside of her clothing, and he was convicted. Hard to look at an eight year old girl and tell her she's lying about that sort of thing.

He is now incarcerated. He will be a registered sex offender when he gets out. If he did that act, it was wrong and he should be punished. But he also needs help. Right now he is in a system where he faces this choice every day. Either he admits that he did the act, as part of his "treatment", or he is branded as uncooperative and unremorseful, and therefore not fulfilling his obligations for his treatment and he stays in jail longer. Fun choice.

 

[The Rube]

Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

The "sex laws" in this country are broken, IMO, no doubt about that. Two high-schoolers have sex, they are aged a couple years apart, parents know about it, are fine with it, it's all consensual......sometimes it falls under Statutory Rape and charges are pressed anyways. That's BS, IMO.

False accusations (the infamous Duke case, and later the Rolling Stone case that was the epitome of false reporting) also hurt. You can just be ACCUSED, nothing will come of it, and you are branded for life.

As for this particular case, as was mentioned, he was convicted. He's guilty. So * this guy, literally and figuratively. Zero sympathy for him.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

There's a reason statutory rape laws are in place.

 

[The Rube]

Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

There's a reason statutory rape laws are in place.

I am aware. My beef is that if ALL parties and parents are knowingly allowing this, even approving it, and charges can STILL be pressed? I don't like that. I don't agree with the approvals, and such, but that doesn't mean it should be against the law.....

 

[Handyman]

Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

I Wonder Who This Trash Is Voting For

"Down with Mexican's who don't speak the language of the world..."

What the hell is wrong with people?

edit: Follow Up

 

[The Rube]

Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

Gonna get roasted here, but while I do NOT agree with the woman's tirade whatsoever; it was rude, insulting, etc....in America, we do speak English. If I visit France, Germany, Russia, whatever, I should be able to at least speak broken (insert language). If I lived in those countries? I expect to speak better than the minimum.

One of the things I find wrong with this country is that we don't have an official language (in law). By default, if you say anything but English, you're kidding yourself.