Nice Planet #8: You People Make Me Sick.

[Kepler]

Re: Nice Planet #8: You People Make Me Sick.

Race in the US today is a proxy for class. It's almost impossible these days to find people who make categorical statements about the inferiority of minorities as minorities. People who make categorical statements about the inferiority of the poor, on the other hand, are so common that they can publicly state their opinions openly. Since class and race dovetail in the US, race becomes a first pass approximation for class. Whites don't cross to the other side of the street when they see a group of blacks dressed in suits. The fear of blacks is just fear of the poor -- the default view is blacks are poor unless contrary outward signs exist. So while that default view is technically racist, it's also Bayesian.

The question is, why is the fear of the poor so strong, particularly now? Hypotheses non fingo.

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

You may be correct that there was very little urban black-on-black crime in the 40s and 50s, Fresh, but I'd like to see a source. It strikes me as likely that, with over racism being much more prevalent then, many folks didn't consider black-on-black violence as a problem and it was under reported as a result. But I don't know that or have a source to support it.

My sarcastic point was that the racial "factor" is just racial scare-mongoring. Violence and crime are generally signs of poverty-driven desperation more than anything else. Trying to say that poor, black neighborhoods have high crime because the citizens are black just shows how far we truly are from a post racial society.

To FF's example of black-on-black crime in the 40s/50s, I'd suggest considering how relatively prosperous all of America was during that time. We still had lower classes then, but not a lot of desperation.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Nice Planet #8: You People Make Me Sick.

My sarcastic point was that the racial "factor" is just racial scare-mongoring. Violence and crime are generally signs of poverty-driven desperation more than anything else. Trying to say that poor, black neighborhoods have high crime because the citizens are black just shows how far we truly are from a post racial society.

To FF's example of black-on-black crime in the 40s/50s, I'd suggest considering how relatively prosperous all of America was during that time. We still had lower classes then, but not a lot of desperation.

I'm sure it's just a coincidence he didn't mention the 30's...

 

[Gurtholfin]

Re: Nice Planet #8: You People Make Me Sick.

My sarcastic point was that the racial "factor" is just racial scare-mongoring. Violence and crime are generally signs of poverty-driven desperation more than anything else. Trying to say that poor, black neighborhoods have high crime because the citizens are black just shows how far we truly are from a post racial society.

Who is saying that?

Of course it's because they're poor and often under educated. Nurture, not nature.


The response of citing black crime rates is usually aimed at the talking heads who are pointing out murder rates and incarceration rates while comparing whites and blacks - something that CNN's two anchors did with a straight face last night. Pointed out the stats as if there were no mitigating factors (you know, that their crime rate is actually higher) involved. Just how unfair it all is.


It's not unfair that people are in prison if they committed the crime(s).


If you're going to argue that the lot in life that some get is unfair, fine. I don't disagree. There are plenty of all races all around the world who have been dealt a crappy hand.

Separate issue though. It's not unfair that one finds himself in trouble if he commits a crime.

 

[trixR4kids]

No, it's not about any of that because not only are all these complaints not legitimately relative to this case, but I sincerely doubt the vast majority of the rioters are that thoughtful in the first place.

Most disingenuous post ever?

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Nice Planet #8: You People Make Me Sick.

Violence and crime are generally signs of poverty-driven desperation more than anything else.

Perhaps so, but it seemed like the violence and crime of other groups was not directed inward at themselves anywhere near as much as we see these days. The Irish fought against the non-Irish, they did not kill other Irish.

My own "take" on it is that we are seeing the results of the covert racism of well-meaning progressives who don't even realize how much they have bought into the "soft bigotry of low expectations."

"Oh, those poor deprived black people, they cannot escape from poverty on their own, we'll have to 'help' them with all sorts of social programs." Social programs that might ameliorate the worst effects of poverty which also make it much much harder to attain upward mobility and become self-sufficient.

Giving a person food, clothing, and shelter while patting them on the head and closing off any true sense of achievement that comes with overcoming adversity...yeah, I can see how that would lead to festering rage of a different kind and degree than we've seen.

It is a response to covert, if well-intentioned, racism.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Nice Planet #8: You People Make Me Sick.

Perhaps so, but it seemed like the violence and crime of other groups was not directed inward at themselves anywhere near as much as we see these days. The Irish fought against the non-Irish, they did not kill other Irish.

You're wrong about this, and about your arguments about intra-racial violence in the 40s and 50s. Mrs. Kepler wrote her doctoral dissertation on the courtroom narratives by both prosecution and defense in murder cases between 1900 and 1950, and part of her research was about the relative incidence of inter- and intra- racial crime. Intra-racial crimes were (1) less likely to be reported by the local community for fear of a police crackdown on the entire population, (2) less likely to be brought into the formal legal system, instead being returned to community leaders to "clean up your own mess," (3) less likely to go to trial because of the small value placed on the victim, and (4) less likely to be reported on in the media, because nobody cared when "one of them" went down.

I had to proofread this stuff for hundreds of hours and I still have PTSD about it, but I can tell you you are stuffed full of wild strawberries if you think black-on-black crime only recently got big. Poor communities always, and I mean always, produce sky high crime rates. Most crime is intensely local: same neighborhood, same street, even same tenement, so when you have highly segregated neighborhoods most crime is intra-racial.

As to the Irish, I suggest you read this book. First of all, it's just an amazing book. Secondly, it will disabuse you of notion that the Irish didn't kill off each other. That's basically all they did for 30 years.

 

[Foxton]

Re: Nice Planet #8: You People Make Me Sick.

"Oh, those poor deprived black people, they cannot escape from poverty on their own, we'll have to 'help' them with all sorts of social programs." Social programs that might ameliorate the worst effects of poverty which also make it much much harder to attain upward mobility and become self-sufficient.

Giving a person food, clothing, and shelter while patting them on the head and closing off any true sense of achievement that comes with overcoming adversity...yeah, I can see how that would lead to festering rage of a different kind and degree than we've seen.

It is a response to covert, if well-intentioned, racism.

Never mind having food or living in conditions that don't make crime an appealing alternative, they just need that sense of achievement from overcoming adversity. Like I'm sure you had to do....

F&ck you

 

[Kepler]

Re: Nice Planet #8: You People Make Me Sick.

It's an article of faith among a certain type of conservative that it's those bad old liberals who are the "real" racists. I first ran into this line of thinking in college and it was restricted to Upper Class Twit of the Year types like Mitt Romney, who were obviously just feathering their own nest. In the ensuing 25 years it's spread all the way down to... well, people who post on the USCHO Forum.

It's a perfect self-serving argument, since it means the less you do to help somebody other than yourself the more you respect them. Therefore, if you do nothing at all, you're morally ideal.

Fifteen seconds in the real world refutes this, but that's not really a problem for the people who promote this view.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Nice Planet #8: You People Make Me Sick.

F&ck you

Typical well-reasoned, thoughtful, eloquence. Very persuasive. I'm convinced by the clarity and depth of your logic.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Nice Planet #8: You People Make Me Sick.

Typical well-reasoned, thoughtful, eloquence. Very persuasive. I'm convinced by the clarity and depth of your logic.

You're a concern troll. Well-reasoned, thoughtful and eloquent arguments are wasted on you.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Nice Planet #8: You People Make Me Sick.

It's an article of faith among a certain type of conservative that it's those bad old liberals who are the "real" racists.

It's a perfect self-serving argument, since it means the less you do to help somebody other than yourself the more you respect them. Therefore, if you do nothing at all, you're morally ideal.

Fifteen seconds in the real world refutes this, but that's not really a problem for the people who promote this view.

This is total and absolute bovine fecal matter. You really should know better.

I've probably donated far more of my time, money, skills, and effort in hands-on efforts to help the poor and needy than you ever have, safely ensconced in your fantasy land where you can smugly look down on everyone else. You claim to be an atheist but I think you do believe in God and it is Yourself that is your God.

There is a huge difference between providing genuine assistance to people and buying off their acquiescence to go away and leave you alone. If you are trying to claim that I in any way are suggesting that we just let people starve you are wrong, wrong, wrong.

I support quite a few non-governmental social assistance programs, not merely with fancy words on a message board but in real life. I limited my comments only to government programs that require you to give up your aspirations to a better life in exchange for food stamps. "here, have some food, now go away and stop bothering me with your ambitions for anything more than that."

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Nice Planet #8: You People Make Me Sick.

You're a concern troll. Well-reasoned, thoughtful and eloquent arguments are wasted on you.

Considering that no one has offered any arguments supported by logic or evidence, how could you possibly know?

Kepler smugly condescends to everyone with no thoughtful content at all, any time anyone presses you for an answer you deflect with snark and sarcasm. There are a few people who genuinely offer thoughtful and reasoned responses, but here are half-a-dozen or more of y'all that never once do, and yet those same vacuous types are the first to distort what someone says into something unrecognizable and then react with feigned horror to something they themselves made up as a ridiculous exaggeration of something that was never said that , oh never mind. It's clearly wasted on you.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Nice Planet #8: You People Make Me Sick.

Kepler is God?

 

[joecct]

Re: Nice Planet #8: You People Make Me Sick.

Kepler

Did part of Mrs. K's research cover the number of two parent families then vs. now?

Just guessing that the communities that policed themselves had more stable family structure than those that did not.

 

[J.D.]

Re: Nice Planet #8: You People Make Me Sick.

not wanting people to stop/delay traffic means i'm close minded? good to know. especially when i have zero problem with protesting in different ways. but jimjamesjimmy apparently thinks this is the ONLY way they could protest. and for me personally, has nothing to do with politics. i lean conservative, my wife leans democrat. we both agree with each other on this issue. it's not politics, it's common ****ing sense.

 

[J.D.]

Re: Nice Planet #8: You People Make Me Sick.

but, i realize the need for some people to politicize everything in order to fit their agenda. it's thanksgiving, there will be a lot of hot air at the dinner table. thankfully i don't engage in any of it.

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: Nice Planet #8: You People Make Me Sick.

If I were to come upon a group of rioters in the street and they start to beat on my vehicle and attempting to reach me inside of it, I'm invoking the "immediate fear of great bodily harm or death" rules.

If you wish to question me on my train of thought, I'll be the guy working the free to the community Thanksgiving dinner at my house of worship tomorrow. Stop on by, I'll save a drumstick for you.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Nice Planet #8: You People Make Me Sick.

No conflict of interest here.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p>Prosecutor Bob McCollouch is on the board of an org raising money for Darren Wilson?? wow <a href="http://t.co/TaKealoJru">http://t.co/TaKealoJru</a> <a href="http://t.co/RjpUH8GjYs">pic.twitter.com/RjpUH8GjYs</a></p>— Davey D (@mrdaveyd) <a href="https://twitter.com/mrdaveyd/status/537629428784709632">November 26, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Nice Planet #8: You People Make Me Sick.

The charge of "racism" is the modern equivalent McCarthyism. It's an argument stopper. Designed to shut up the target. Employed ironically by the off spring of 50s liberals who screamed bloody murder about "guilt by association," and "I only went to a couple of meetings in college." It adds nothing to our national discussion on race. Are there racists? Certainly (not all of them white). Were there Communists? Just ask Julius and Ethel and Alger. But these represent a microscopic minority. Perhaps we could stop the name calling long enough to see if we can find real solutions to problems.

For instance, we've all been informed repeatedly about the racial imbalance in the Ferguson PD. The implication is it stems from some racial animus or at least resistance to officers of color. But, does it? Has anyone looked into the applications and qualifications of black candidates? Are sharp young would be cops applying to the much larger St. Louis department? Are any qualified young people of color applying to the Ferguson PD? If they're being rejected without cause then they've got a problem.. But if the applicant pool is too small and too unqualified, then what can be done? Well, the department and community leaders can reach out to young people to encourage careers in law enforcement. Find local young people serving in the military in security services and encourage them to apply in Ferguson. Establish a Michael Brown criminal justice scholarship with the winner agreeing to serve in the Ferguson PD.

Personally, I'd like to see more minority officers in that department. But absent any evidence that there's resistance to the concept, suggesting (as has been done perhaps a million times) that absence is "proof" of racial animus is not justified. This would be one small area where a problem could be addressed and ameliorated. But from what I've seen and heard these past months, there isn't much desire to do that. B*tching is much easier.