Nice Planet 2011

[Old Pio]

Re: Nice Planet 2011

I agree, but what was done to Matthew Shephard is about as heinous (not only in execution but reason) as it gets, was it not?



Not only do we not know if this is true or not, explain exactly why it's so illogical to surmise that someone capable of "_______" on the basis of race or sexual orientation is less likely to repeat their behavior any less so than a pedophile? My Parise I'm not suggesting a pedophile shouldn't be locked away in the manner they currently are, but I am questioning why a hate crime offender is so much more likely to stop their behavior after one incident. Jebus, think about it.

Actually, it's you who should think about it. Short of chemical castration, have you ever heard of any "therapy" that "cured" a pedophile? It sure didn't work for hundreds (thousands?) of priests, did it? My admittedly lay understanding is pedophiles are extremely resistant to treatment and are almost never free from their urges. And they start very early and continue for decades. Take the case of Kenneth Parnell, who kidnapped and sexually abused Stevie Stayner for years in the 70's. Decades later, at age 71 and confined to a wheelchair, Parnell was convicted of trying to "buy" a four year old boy. A lifetime achievement award winner if ever there was one. However, I believe not all people who commit "hate crimes" do so as an avocation. My guess is that many of the crimes are situational, a product of drinking, unemployment, ignorance, confrontation and other factors. And "hate crimes" covers a wide range of law breaking doesn't it? From knocking over headstones and soaping windows with swastikas to dragging some poor devil behind a pickup. Whereas what pedophiles do is defined by a much narrower range of motivation and behavior. Certainly there must be serial "hate crime" perpetrators out there, but my guess is, for a whole bunch of them, the "hate crime" they commit is their first and probably only one. The damage pedophiles do to our society is also much greater, IMO.

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: Nice Planet 2011

Certainly there must be serial "hate crime" perpetrators out there, but my guess is, for a whole bunch of them, the "hate crime" they commit is their first and probably only one. The damage pedophiles do to our society is also much greater, IMO.

I'm not arguing for a reduction of the penalties waged against pedophiles, I just don't think it's illogical to believe that someone capable of a "pshychological" crime born of hatred toward a race or sexual orientation isn't capable of repeating said behavior. I'm not equating the two crimes but rather questioning whether or not what led to the action is any less likely to be repeated. In the end I think the question is why should we shy away from adding time to this type of crime? Would we really be missing the boat?

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Nice Planet 2011

I'm not arguing for a reduction of the penalties waged against pedophiles, I just don't think it's illogical to believe that someone capable of a "pshychological" crime born of hatred toward a race or sexual orientation isn't capable of repeating said behavior.

I understood you the first time. And as I've explained now, twice, short of killing him, I don't know how you can guarantee that a pedophile won't re-offend. But I think a high school kid who gets loaded, and knocks over some headstones can be taught the error of his ways. The buried premise of your argument seems to be that all "hate crimes" are lynchings and all the same. They aren't. And I haven't touched on the issue of sentencing, except to note the draconian penalties assessed the guys who killed Mr. Byrd. And I certainly haven't suggested that people who commit "hate crimes" "aren't capable" of reoffending. Why don't you try responding to the arguments I actually make? I say again, for the most part, "hate crimes" laws are panders by Democrats to a reliable constituency and do far more harm than good to our society.

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: Nice Planet 2011

The buried premise of your argument seems to be that all "hate crimes" are lynchings and all the same.

Jebus, nothing I've posted would suggest anything of the sort. I've never once suggested all "hate crimes" are one in the same. If anything I'd question why you're so averse to the possibility that said behavior could be repeated. That's easily as logical as the thought process you've ascribed to me. Jebus pio, it's this type of exchange where you lose me. Is it really that ludicrous to wonder if the perpetrators of the Shepard case wouldn't continue with their ways were they not caught? Why exactly are you so disinclined to discuss that possibility? I've not demanded any bizarre punishments I simply don't think it's beyond the realm of possiblities that someone capable of such a crime wouldn't do it again.

 

[Foxton]

Re: Nice Planet 2011

I understood you the first time.

You didn't, you couldn't have because you have no clue what a hate crime even is. (By the way, could you actually point to this tombstone tipper hate crime?) You don't even realize what Slap Shot was trying to say, hence why you're still blithering on about it as if you have some point to make.

For example, this is a hate crime.
2 Men Plead Guilty In Swastika Branding Case

Before you even say something stupid. (Which would require you not to post) THEY PLEADED GUILTY TO IT!

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Nice Planet 2011

Jebus, nothing I've posted would suggest anything of the sort. I've never once suggested all "hate crimes" are one in the same. If anything I'd question why you're so averse to the possibility that said behavior could be repeated. That's easily as logical as the thought process you've ascribed to me. Jebus pio, it's this type of exchange where you lose me. Is it really that ludicrous to wonder if the perpetrators of the Shepard case wouldn't continue with their ways were they not caught? Why exactly are you so disinclined to discuss that possibility? I've not demanded any bizarre punishments I simply don't think it's beyond the realm of possiblities that someone capable of such a crime wouldn't do it again.

As I understand it, the motivation of the thugs in the Shepherd case is open to disucssion. And I don't recall, but did those losers have a history of "hate crimes?" Why is it so hard for you to picture somebody doing something stupd, and probably out of character, once in his life? Why do you cling so desperately to the notion that anyone who commits any kind of "hate crime" is a Grand Kleagal and absolutely committed to a lifetime of "hate crimes?" Why is that notion so important to you? I guess because you so fervently believe that these legal panders are necessary. And you continue to refute arguments I haven't made. I've held out the possibility that there may be serial committers of "hate crimes," it is you who have absolutely denied the possibility that anyone could only commit one such crime and then grow up and move on. And that's why I say it's a non sequitor to compare people who commit "hate crimes" with pedophiles. Pedophilia is not an impulse or a mind set. Nobody "changes their mind" about being a pedophile. But racists can reform, check out the biography of Mr. Justice Hugo Black.

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: Nice Planet 2011

No one has a history of crime the first time they commit one. Jebus, really?

fwiw I fully accept that someone capable of a "hate crime" may not automatically be capable of repeating said behavior but do we want to take that chance? And do you recognize that they may be?

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Nice Planet 2011

No one has a history of crime the first time they commit one. Jebus, really?

fwiw I fully accept that someone capable of a "hate crime" may not automatically be capable of repeating said behavior but do we want to take that chance? And do you recognize that they may be?

Okay, we're done here. You can keep arguing like a high school sophomore by yourself. I think most people with room temperature IQ's understand that in the context of our discussion a "history" can include juvenile crimes as well as crimes not discovered or charged and actions that, while not criminal, might be predictive of future behavior. You made a bad comparison between pedophiles and people who commit hate crimes. It was bad then. And it's still bad.

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: Nice Planet 2011

Okay, we're done here. You can keep arguing like a high school sophomore by yourself.

We're done because you're incapable of honest discourse. I never equated anything with anything but rather made it perfectly clear I question if someone capable of a hate crime is or is not similary capable of commting the offense again. You're so inflicted with a, "black and white" mentality that you don't realize we're far closer to our thinking than not. Sadly, that your refuse to address the concept makes you the child and no one else. Good luck with continuing to tuck tail and hide when asked to address a comprehensive concept.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Nice Planet 2011

You didn't, you couldn't have because you have no clue what a hate crime even is. (By the way, could you actually point to this tombstone tipper hate crime?) You don't even realize what Slap Shot was trying to say, hence why you're still blithering on about it as if you have some point to make.

For example, this is a hate crime.
2 Men Plead Guilty In Swastika Branding Case

Before you even say something stupid. (Which would require you not to post) THEY PLEADED GUILTY TO IT!

We're especially semi-literate tonight, aren't we, liar?

 

[Foxton]

Re: Nice Planet 2011

As I understand it, the motivation of the thugs in the Shepherd case is open to disucssion.

One of there few attempts at defending themselves was "gay panic" up until they admitted that they did it because he was gay along with girlfriends. The only people who question the motivation are ****** bags like you, who want to act like someone beaten so badly that doctors won't attempt to save them was just a robbery.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Nice Planet 2011

One of there few attempts at defending themselves was "gay panic" up until they admitted that they did it because he was gay along with girlfriends. The only people who question the motivation are ****** bags like you, who want to act like someone beaten so badly that doctors won't attempt to save them was just a robbery.

You're a contemptible cur. And a liar. With the intellectual curiosity of a wheelbarrow full of horsesh*t.
You're like the high priest of some ancient religion, condemning to death anyone who would question or even think that there may be another explanation. Only you would smear me as implicitly wanting to ameliorate the guilt of those killers. I assume you must feel the same way about ABC News, they're notoriously anti-gay too, right? Whether you like it or not, at least one major news organization has come to a different conclusion about the motivation for Shepherd's death. Are they right? Who knows? However, in your world, the mere mention of the fact that questions have been raised is enough to generate the cheapest of cheap shots. The narrative of Matthew Shepherd as the victim of "homophobia" is more important than anything. Including decency. And truth.

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Story?id=277685&page=1

 

[leswp1]

Re: Nice Planet 2011

Wow, this thread has disintegrated.

 

[Patman]

Re: Nice Planet 2011

I think "hate crimes" get attention for reasons that pedophiles do - is there something in the offender that predisposes them to this type of crime more than an offender of a simple robbery or "spur of the moment" offense? We throw the book at pedophiles because it's likely the psychological makeup of the criminal suggests they'll do it again and therefore they see more time than another offender that targets adults? Isn't it logical to suggest that someone "predisposed" to targeting _______ group has a similarly dangerous pysche?

Before anyone jumps my train my mind is not made up, but I think the concept itself is worthy of intelligent discourse.

Hate crimes usually come up because the rest of the slate of punishments have been lowered across the board... so when something especially heinous comes around without it you won't be able to assert nearly as much punishment. This would harm/split the Dems special-interest driven politics... in this case you would be pitting the part of the left which sympathizes with the poor downtrodden criminal versus the particular ethno/racial/gender group. Thus you need hate crime statutes in order not to lose those groups.

What we really need as a modifier is malice/evil. Malice should be an aggravating factor as it contains all the groups which would fall under hate statutes plus a few more.

Really, the whole point of a hate statute is to exact revenge punishment that would otherwise not occur. Its more for the feelings of society and the levying of a threat to discourage action against the particular group. In the latter sense it is somewhat moral. We do want to discourage incredibly awful anti-social behavior. At the same time, however, we ignore other brands of incredibly awful anti-social behavior because it doesn't occur to a person of the right status.

In America a man's status should not matter. What should only matter is the crime and the malice. If you are looking to punish the malice then go for it. The only thing a hate crime law does is that it takes the judgement of malice out of the hands of the judge and jury... but at the same time it painfully restricts the possibilities to a defined victim class... if you assume the judge and jury are composed of dimwitted socially-backward people then I can understand why one would see the imposition of a hate crime statute as a plus. Of course, in this the idea is still intellectually bankrupt. It isn't a charge against hate itself. Its a charge against violating a protected group. In the end, its not identity blind. So, yes, you've stopped the mouth-breathing heathens... but in doing so you've failed to punish a different brand of reprobates.

 

[Foxton]

Re: Nice Planet 2011

You're a contemptible cur. And a liar. With the intellectual curiosity of a wheelbarrow full of horsesh*t.
You're like the high priest of some ancient religion, condemning to death anyone who would question or even think that there may be another explanation.

So I'm the catholic church?

Only you would smear me as implicitly wanting to ameliorate the guilt of those killers. I assume you must feel the same way about ABC News, they're notoriously anti-gay too, right? Whether you like it or not, at least one major news organization has come to a different conclusion about the motivation for Shepherd's death. Are they right? Who knows? However, in your world, the mere mention of the fact that questions have been raised is enough to generate the cheapest of cheap shots. The narrative of Matthew Shepherd as the victim of "homophobia" is more important than anything. Including decency. And truth.

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Story?id=277685&page=1

At this point there's no other conclusion than you siding with the killers. Same with ABC for that piece actually and here's some of the reasons why.

http://www.glaad.org/matthewshepard2020

• There is no discussion of the details of Aaron McKinney's confession to the police, where anti-gay bias is central to his characterization of the events of Oct. 6, 1998. Nor is there any mention of Rob DeBree, the investigator who took that statement and was one of the key witnesses as to the investigation and the confession at McKinney’s trial.

No mention of the plea bargain that spared McKinney's life, nor any mention of Judy and Dennis Shepard's role in that. And no mention of the provision of that plea bargain where McKinney and his attorneys agreed not to speak to the press about this case.

No mention of the more than 200 interviews over two years conducted by Moisés Kaufman and the Tectonic Theater Project for The Laramie Project -- nor the fact that some of the accounts offered 20/20 conflict with those offered Kaufman.

You're the kind of ignorant sycophant that deserves to have cosmetics tested on them.

Edit, some more of what Takei thinks of you.
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[Old Pio]

Re: Nice Planet 2011

So I'm the catholic church?

At this point there's no other conclusion than you siding with the killers. Same with ABC for that piece actually and here's some of the reasons why.

http://www.glaad.org/matthewshepard2020

You're the kind of ignorant sycophant that deserves to have cosmetics tested on them.

Yup, and GLAAD certainly has no dog in this hunt. Just for the record you lying, cowardly, cur, those two animals should have been put to death. Why don't you find another simpering no talent nancy boy to quote here?

 

[Foxton]

Re: Nice Planet 2011

Yup, and GLAAD certainly has no dog in this hunt. Just for the record you lying, cowardly, cur, those two animals should have been put to death. Why don't you find another simpering no talent nancy boy to quote here?

Your rebuttal to their points on why the ABC piece was crap was thoroughly enlightening.

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[Rimbaud]

Re: Nice Planet 2011

Wow, this thread has disintegrated.

That's what happens when an angry old man with too much rage gets trolled so bad that the troll has to fill out a change of address form because they're residing permanently in the angry old man's head.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Nice Planet 2011

That's what happens when an angry old man with too much rage gets trolled so bad that the troll has to fill out a change of address form because they're residing permanently in the angry old man's head.

Seriously, please explain why libtards always beg the question and call anyone who disagrees with them "angry?" Or is that just part of the libtard cant? As to the lying, cowardly, cur: I'm not angry at him.

 

[Foxton]

Re: Nice Planet 2011

That's what happens when an angry old man with too much rage gets trolled so bad that the troll has to fill out a change of address form because they're residing permanently in the angry old man's head.

It's dark, there's lots of empty space, and Brian Blessed is dressed up in an orangutan suit.

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