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NHL 2015, Part 3: Stanley Cup and Offseason

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Re: NHL 2015, Part 3: Stanley Cup and Offseason

trixR4kids said:
I love when people cite intangibles because it's basically another way of saying, "I don't have any actual proof so obviously I need to find something that can't be measured to fit my narrative".

I get that team chemistry matters and I've played the sport my whole life for a variety of different teams that all have their different attitudes and what not but I don't think it matters as much as some people think. The Seahawks don't exactly sound like the most harmonious locker room ever but won a SB and were one bad playcall away from their 2nd in 3 years just to name an example. There are plenty more.

The idea that Crosby/Bergeron/Getzlaf/Tavares don't work equally hard, lack leadership qualities or lack the will to win is asinine and shows that you've never listened to an interview by any of them, know nothing about their off season training, or just simply just believe everything the media and Mike Milbury tells you. Toews is good but he sure as heck isn't leaps and bounds better than any of those guys if he's even better at all. If you want to cite something measurable to justify your argument then fine.

Keep in mind this all started because of the whole "clutch player" argument despite the fact that Vermette probably had the most clutch moments in these playoffs for the Hawks. We could look back to their 2nd cup run and remember how clutch Toews was against the Red Wings as well. In the end my only point is that the Hawks are a dynasty mostly because of what Ken Holland has done to put together that squad in terms of depth, the best top 6 in the NHL, the best 4 Dmen when you consider how much they played and how well they shut down the opposition etc.
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Frankly it's all that matters. You're arguing with yourself. There is so much parity, so much will to win, and so much drive out of every NHL player in the league. They're the greatest that plays right now. Same with MLB, the NFL, and the NBA.

The difference between winning and losing is always the intangibles. Always. If it were strictly about talent then the 1998 Vikings would have won the Super Bowl. Lebron James would have won four titles in a row in Miami. And the list goes on and on.
 
Re: NHL 2015, Part 3: Stanley Cup and Offseason

The difference between winning and losing is always the intangibles.
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That's where I gotta agree to disagree. The Hawks are the most talented/deep team in the NHL. Holland put together a roster that's more talented than any other team. I don't really think it's the intangibles that separate them from the Wild/Blues/TB/NSH/Ducks and all the other teams that simply don't have the top 6, depth, goaltending, etc.
 
Re: NHL 2015, Part 3: Stanley Cup and Offseason

trixR4kids said:
That's where I gotta agree to disagree. The Hawks are the most talented/deep team in the NHL. Holland put together a roster that's more talented than any other team. I don't really think it's the intangibles that separate them from the Wild/Blues/TB/NSH/Ducks and all the other teams that simply don't have the top 6, depth, goaltending, etc.
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Oh, really. Well if they're so talented then why did Tampa Bay almost beat them? Yes, it was that close. And Tampa had an injured goaltender the Whole Freaking Series. Sorry, not buying what you're selling. The differences in talent are razor thin and will, creativity, and moxy are what get the job done. It's why Mauer will always be the most talented worthless baseball player of all time.
 
Re: NHL 2015, Part 3: Stanley Cup and Offseason

Bowman is the Hawks' GM, not Holland.


And Scooby is 100% correct.
 
Re: NHL 2015, Part 3: Stanley Cup and Offseason

Yeah IDK why I got that confused (prob because Bowman makes me think of the Red wings :( ), thanks for the correction.

Well if they're so talented then why did Tampa Bay almost beat them? Yes, it was that close. And Tampa had an injured goaltender the Whole Freaking Series. Sorry, not buying what you're selling. The differences in talent are razor thin and will, creativity, and moxy are what get the job done. It's why Mauer will always be the most talented worthless baseball player of all time.
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TB was the one team from either conference that I thought had the depth to compete and possibly even beat the Hawks. In my bracket I had them facing the Hawks in the end and the Hawks winning in a close series (ie 6 or 7).

The difference is the slightly deeper less injured team won and I don't think we really need to build an elaborate narrative around that fact. You're right that the difference is razor thin, hockey is such a low scoring game and luck plays a huge factor. I will say that CHI's D is simply better. They played 4 pretty much the entire playoffs and shut down one of the best teams in the NHL in the finals. TB's issue the entire playoffs was Sustr, Coburn, and Garrison.
 
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Re: NHL 2015, Part 3: Stanley Cup and Offseason

trixR4kids said:
Yeah IDK why I got that confused (prob because Bowman makes me think of the Red wings :( ), thanks for the correction.


TB was the one team from either conference that I thought had the depth to compete and possibly even beat the Hawks. In my bracket I had them facing the Hawks in the end and the Hawks winning in a close series (ie 6 or 7).

The difference is the slightly deeper less injured team won and I don't think we really need to build an elaborate narrative around that fact.
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You should just move to Vegas right now and become rich on sports gambling. You've got all the answers.
 
Re: NHL 2015, Part 3: Stanley Cup and Offseason

ScoobyDoo said:
Oh, really. Well if they're so talented then why did Tampa Bay almost beat them? Yes, it was that close. And Tampa had an injured goaltender the Whole Freaking Series. Sorry, not buying what you're selling. The differences in talent are razor thin and will, creativity, and moxy are what get the job done. It's why Mauer will always be the most talented worthless baseball player of all time.
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The greatest single intangible in the NHL will always be staying healthy: http://www.mangameslost.com/the-most-injured-nhl-teams-since-the-2009-2010-season/
 
Re: NHL 2015, Part 3: Stanley Cup and Offseason

ScoobyDoo said:
You should just move to Vegas right now and become rich on sports gambling. You've got all the answers.
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Nah, I prefer MN :D. I did predict the last two cup winners but like I said there's so much luck in hockey that I don't expect that to continue forever.

Rimbaud said:
The greatest single intangible in the NHL will always be staying healthy: http://www.mangameslost.com/the-most-injured-nhl-teams-since-the-2009-2010-season/
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This is very true.
 
Re: NHL 2015, Part 3: Stanley Cup and Offseason

PrezdeJohnson09 said:
I was trying to come up with the list of all the guys who have been a part of all 3 without looking.

Toews
Kane
Sharp
Hossa
Seabrook
Keith
Hjalmarsson

Is that it? versteeg missed the middle year I think right or did he come back in the 2013 season.
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Sharp will be gone next year. The remaining 6 plus Crawford is still a pretty dang good team to have. They won't be going away anytime soon.
 
Re: NHL 2015, Part 3: Stanley Cup and Offseason

icehawk said:
Sharp will be gone next year. The remaining 6 plus Crawford is still a pretty dang good team to have. They won't be going away anytime soon.
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As of right now they could get rid of Sharp, Versteeg, Bickell, and Seabrook and they still wouldn't have much money to work with in terms of what they would need to replace (considering Saad will get a raise etc). It will be interesting to see how they navigate this but Bowman has done an impressive job thus far.
 
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Re: NHL 2015, Part 3: Stanley Cup and Offseason

icehawk said:
Sharp will be gone next year. The remaining 6 plus Crawford is still a pretty dang good team to have. They won't be going away anytime soon.
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Saad, Seabrook, and Teravainen all return as well, no?

I believe Seabrook is a free agent but I can't see the 'Hawks letting him go elsewhere.

While I don't believe in a home-town "discount," I also do not dismiss the total possible payroll package that includes endorsement deals. Seabrook could make more money overall by staying with the 'Hawks with a lower salary than he could elsewhere. Chicago companies love to hire sports heroes as endorsers, perhaps more so than in any other city.
 
Re: NHL 2015, Part 3: Stanley Cup and Offseason

FreshFish said:
Saad, Seabrook, and Teravainen all return as well, no?

I believe Seabrook is a free agent but I can't see the 'Hawks letting him go elsewhere.

While I don't believe in a home-town "discount," I also do not dismiss the total possible payroll package that includes endorsement deals. Seabrook could make more money overall by staying with the 'Hawks with a lower salary than he could elsewhere. Chicago companies love to hire sports heroes as endorsers, perhaps more so than in any other city.
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http://stats.nhlnumbers.com/teams/CHI?year=2016

He's not a free agent but they're likely gonna need to make some trades to navigate the cap situation.
 
Re: NHL 2015, Part 3: Stanley Cup and Offseason

St. Clown said:
Are you trying to tell me that Toews' home town ISN'T Grand Forks? I'd have never guessed...


:D
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Nodaks don't deny that he has some ties to Winnipeg. And sure, he had birth parents. But we all know where the seed of greatness was planted.
 
Re: NHL 2015, Part 3: Stanley Cup and Offseason

Gurtholfin said:
... I get to go swag shopping next week when I'm down there for a U2 concert.
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I'll back in Chicago for quick visit near the end of July. Leave a couple of items for me. ;)

Winning every other year is probably optimal for merchandise sales. The disappointment of 2014 will help fuel the feeding frenzy of 2015.
 
Re: NHL 2015, Part 3: Stanley Cup and Offseason

FreshFish said:
What the 'Hawks have done over the past seven or eight years is remarkable, truly impressive.

Only a linguistic purist would quibble over the use of the word "dynasty." It seems a bit premature to use it yet, 3 championships over 6 years means that they are very close, but if the word is going to remain indicative of something historically rare and special, then I'd love to see 4 out of 7. Of course, change one fluke bounce last year in Game 7 OT loss to Kings, and 4 out of 6 would remove all doubt as well.

From the collective wisdom of crowds commonly known as Wikipedia:

Original sources for items cited below:

NHL website, Hockey Hall of Fame website.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=25435
http://www.hhof.com/htmltimecapsule/dyntm00.shtml
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From one linguistic purist to another, let me say you quibble very well.:p;)

Appreciate your research. I was going to look this stuff up, but you saved me trouble.

Overall, I agree that the label doesn't ultimately matter. But it is a reasonable off-season topic, and we now find ourselves in the off-season.
 
Re: NHL 2015, Part 3: Stanley Cup and Offseason

God I hate the ****ing Blackhawks. They won, they're great, there's no denying that. But oh my god do I hate them.
 
Re: NHL 2015, Part 3: Stanley Cup and Offseason

lugnut92 said:
God I hate the ****ing Blackhawks. They won, they're great, there's no denying that. But oh my god do I hate them.
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Fortunately for you, the Ohio State Buckeyes are the reigning champions of college football.

That makes you feel much better, correct?:p;)
 
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