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NFL 2014-15: Iron Fist Getting Rusty?

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Re: NFL 2014-15: Iron Fist Getting Rusty?

SJHovey said:
Without an NFL career, or paycheck, he probably won't have quite the same appeal for her going forward.
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And had he not had one, perhaps the State of New Jersey would have handled him differently.

I think some of O's rants againt the criminal system has a point. Assuming that the second video would have resulted in a different result- which I will fully admit at this point that I don't know NJ's laws, so I don't know if the second video is, in fact, a crime or not.

But lets say that it is, and that the pre-trial program he was admitted into would not cover that offense.

Months after the agreement, we see this video which would have given us a different answer to the original offense. So two possibilities were pointed out- either the criminal process in Atlantic City is incompetent (they missed a pretty obvious video, and there are cameras all over the place in a casino- this isn't hard to legally ask for), OR they were not going to the letter of the law.

Either answer speaks pretty darned poorly for the system and the people running it. Both could easily be reasons that the people in place should not be there.

Now if the second video changes nothing, and the program that he is in is acceptable for the offense in the recent video... well, then the public outcry for that result should result in a change of the laws. Pretty simple. the people are speaking, that is what the legislature is for.
 
Re: NFL 2014-15: Iron Fist Getting Rusty?

alfablue said:
And had he not had one, perhaps the State of New Jersey would have handled him differently.

I think some of O's rants againt the criminal system has a point. Assuming that the second video would have resulted in a different result- which I will fully admit at this point that I don't know NJ's laws, so I don't know if the second video is, in fact, a crime or not.

But lets say that it is, and that the pre-trial program he was admitted into would not cover that offense.

Months after the agreement, we see this video which would have given us a different answer to the original offense. So two possibilities were pointed out- either the criminal process in Atlantic City is incompetent (they missed a pretty obvious video, and there are cameras all over the place in a casino- this isn't hard to legally ask for), OR they were not going to the letter of the law.

Either answer speaks pretty darned poorly for the system and the people running it. Both could easily be reasons that the people in place should not be there.

Now if the second video changes nothing, and the program that he is in is acceptable for the offense in the recent video... well, then the public outcry for that result should result in a change of the laws. Pretty simple. the people are speaking, that is what the legislature is for.
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He was charged with aggravated assault, a felony. He was charged with striking her and knocking her unconscious, which is pretty much what the video inside the elevator shows. I think I read somewhere that the cops had all the video at the time of the charge, which I would expect.

http://tmz.vo.llnwd.net/o28/newsdesk/tmz_documents/0219-ray-rice-tmz-doc-01.pdf

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2008518-ray-rice-reportedly-indicted-on-aggravated-assault-charge

If you look at the pretrial diversionary program link I provided earlier, it looks like this is a program intended only for very serious offenses, but instances where everyone may be better served if a solution other than imprisonment is identified. If you commit an offense where you aren't going to jail even if convicted, this program is not for you.

My guess, completely uneducated I admit, is the program is primarily used for serious drug offenses, spousal abuse or similar serious crimes committed by first time offenders with a chance of rehabilitation.
 
Re: NFL 2014-15: Iron Fist Getting Rusty?

SJHovey said:
If you look at the pretrial diversionary program link I provided earlier, it looks like this is a program intended only for very serious offenses, but instances where everyone may be better served if a solution other than imprisonment is identified. If you commit an offense where you aren't going to jail even if convicted, this program is not for you.
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So, basically, the new video (to the public) changed nothing on the criminal side of things.

Which is fine- that's the law.

And if people have a problem with that, call their representatives to change the law. Terrible thing that happened, no question. But the law is the law. And is changeable for future events.

As for the NFL, the fact that TMZ could get a video that they could not OR they were ignoring it- now that's an interesting thing to think about- again, both answers are bad for the NFL.
 
Re: NFL 2014-15: Iron Fist Getting Rusty?

SJHovey said:
Without an NFL career, or paycheck, he probably won't have quite the same appeal for her going forward.
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St. Clown said:
I doubt she would have been involved in releasing the video. If she'd had any sense she'd have left him as soon as the whole thing went down, rather I expect she was hooking her wagon to his gravy train and standing by him until to keep herself in the money. Who knows what happens now.
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Or, you know, she could be scared to leave him or say anything bad about him because he beats her.

But keep victim-shaming her. It's very noble of you guys.
 
Re: NFL 2014-15: Iron Fist Getting Rusty?

alfablue said:
So, basically, the new video (to the public) changed nothing on the criminal side of things.

Which is fine- that's the law.

And if people have a problem with that, call their representatives to change the law. Terrible thing that happened, no question. But the law is the law. And is changeable for future events.

As for the NFL, the fact that TMZ could get a video that they could not OR they were ignoring it- now that's an interesting thing to think about- again, both answers are bad for the NFL.
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I think it's a somewhat fascinating dynamic. I personally have no problem with all the abuse the Ravens and NFL may receive, but I also recognize they faced a situation that most of us never face as either employers or employees.

Ray Rice is (or was) an employee of the Baltimore Ravens. However, a collective bargaining agreement apparently gives some sort of joint, or mutually exclusive, disciplinary power to both the Ravens and the NFL with respect to this employee. It would be similar to if you worked at McDonald's and both the local franchise owner and McDonald's corporate had the independent ability to discipline you.

Then we get to the issue that this really isn't even a work related offense. It's not like he punched out Joe Flacco in an elevator.

Again, if you work for a local McDonald's, and while hanging in Atlantic City decide to punch out your girlfriend, you are certainly going to be charged with a crime. But do you get fired as the french fry guy, too? I don't think most of us would until our jail time keeps us away from work.

Because of the very public nature of professional sports, the leagues and their teams have obviously negotiated, or reserved to themselves the right to simply get rid of people who bring shame to their group. Again, I have no problem with that. But it's a tricky situation, especially when taking that step against one member of your group potentially benefits other members.
 
Re: NFL 2014-15: Iron Fist Getting Rusty?

SJHovey said:
I think it's a somewhat fascinating dynamic. I personally have no problem with all the abuse the Ravens and NFL may receive, but I also recognize they faced a situation that most of us never face as either employers or employees.

Ray Rice is (or was) an employee of the Baltimore Ravens. However, a collective bargaining agreement apparently gives some sort of joint, or mutually exclusive, disciplinary power to both the Ravens and the NFL with respect to this employee. It would be similar to if you worked at McDonald's and both the local franchise owner and McDonald's corporate had the independent ability to discipline you.

Then we get to the issue that this really isn't even a work related offense. It's not like he punched out Joe Flacco in an elevator.

Again, if you work for a local McDonald's, and while hanging in Atlantic City decide to punch out your girlfriend, you are certainly going to be charged with a crime. But do you get fired as the french fry guy, too? I don't think most of us would until our jail time keeps us away from work.

Because of the very public nature of professional sports, the leagues and their teams have obviously negotiated, or reserved to themselves the right to simply get rid of people who bring shame to their group. Again, I have no problem with that. But it's a tricky situation, especially when taking that step against one member of your group potentially benefits other members.
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I do think it's important to put this into some perspective.

Ray Rice is losing his job, that's all. The job was to play a game. The game is entertainment that people pay a lot of money for. but that's it. Not paying a fine, not going to jail more, nothing like that- just losing the job.

Does he work for the Ravens or the NFL? dunno. But as far as I see, the Ravens are the one that he lost the job from.

So in your example- are there things that McDonalds Co can punish me for? As in keep me away from my job for X amount of time, or fire me? I'm sure there are. Same as the local francise.

I look at my current job, and note the things I can be fired for- some of them are just about the preceptions put on my corporation- such as just conflicts of interest. I can be fired for that. There are a number of law that if I break, I can be fired for, too. There are a number of other reasons I can be fired that there are no laws over.

Same here- Ray Rice did something that his employer did not like enough that he got fired.

Like any Unions, the players association needs to figure out if this is an area that they think he should not be fired over, and chose to defend him or not. Like unions do for auto workers, teamsters, etc.

But it's just a job. Nowhere does life give people garuntees that they get these kinds of jobs and keep them.

It's a job, it's a game, it's entertainment. that's all.
 
Re: NFL 2014-15: Iron Fist Getting Rusty?

Not to mention, neither the NFL nor the Ravens are publicly traded (that I know of). As private entities, isn't what they do with/to employees up to them? Or something along those lines?
 
Re: NFL 2014-15: Iron Fist Getting Rusty?

Scarlet said:
Not to mention, neither the NFL nor the Ravens are publicly traded (that I know of). As private entities, isn't what they do with/to employees up to them? Or something along those lines?
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Yeah, you're thinking of Arian Foster of the Texans. :D
 
Re: NFL 2014-15: Iron Fist Getting Rusty?

Rimbaud said:
Or, you know, she could be scared to leave him or say anything bad about him because he beats her.

But keep victim-shaming her. It's very noble of you guys.
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There are victims who are completely blameless and there are victims who should have seen signs leading up to crime. I would put her in the latter group. And if she doesn't know that anything that would happen to her in the foreseeable future will shine a huge spotlight right back onto Ray, and therefore unwilling to leave him because of that, then there's little empathy I have for the woman. We can only save people willing to be saved.
 
Re: NFL 2014-15: Iron Fist Getting Rusty?

Scarlet said:
Not to mention, neither the NFL nor the Ravens are publicly traded (that I know of). As private entities, isn't what they do with/to employees up to them? Or something along those lines?
Click to expand...

There's a great argument to be made that if they've taken any public funds in building a stadium or other facilities that it's no longer a truly private company and that the public has a right to know more about its doings. I don't know how much I ascribe to that argument, but it's out there.
 
Re: NFL 2014-15: Iron Fist Getting Rusty?

Scarlet said:
Not to mention, neither the NFL nor the Ravens are publicly traded (that I know of). As private entities, isn't what they do with/to employees up to them? Or something along those lines?
Click to expand...
Employees generally either work at the pleasure of the employer, often referred to as "at will", or they work pursuant to a contract. Sometimes it's just a contract with that one employee. Sometimes it's a collective bargaining (union) contract. If you have a contract, the terms of that will apply. If you are "at will", they can get rid of you for just about any reason they want, except for the standard "human rights" reasons (age, race, sex, etc...) or retaliatory reasons (retaliation for filing a work comp claim, for blowing the whistle on them to the authorities, cooperation with a human rights investigation, etc...).

In some states public employment has a slightly different set of rules. But I don't think it matters whether an employer is a publicly traded entity or not. Others may know.
 
Re: NFL 2014-15: Iron Fist Getting Rusty?

St. Clown said:
There are victims who are completely blameless and there are victims who should have seen signs leading up to crime. I would put her in the latter group. And if she doesn't know that anything that would happen to her in the foreseeable future will shine a huge spotlight right back onto Ray, and therefore unwilling to leave him because of that, then there's little empathy I have for the woman. We can only save people willing to be saved.
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Now you're saying saying she deserved it. Do you know anyone that's been in an abusive relationship? Because the ones I know of there's none where the victim left after the first instance (or the 2nd or the 3rd). In all cases I learned of the abuse well after the relationships ended when they finally felt safe enough to talk about. So I guess she's lucky to have gotten what was coming to her (in your ****ed up world view) recorded, because most of the time that's not the case. Hopefully now her friends can convince her to leave and that she'll be safe.

It's people like you who shame abuse victims into thinking they do deserve it and that they are the ones to blame. So **** you.
 
Re: NFL 2014-15: Iron Fist Getting Rusty?

1. Has any NFL, NFLPA, or Ravens employee ever watched a tv show in the last 30 years that had domestic abuse as a central point in the script/discussion/news?

2. Is it unknown to the people mentioned above that often, very often, the victim accepts responsibility for blame, returns to the abuser. and/or refuses to help prosecute the offender?

If not, you live under a rock and should have no contact with the real world and obviously have no place in making a decision regarding human beings.

3. How were so many reporters aware of the video or the facts shown in the video if you were not? Don't you ever read or watch sports columns/shows? Weren't you a little bit curious? What happened to the great NFL Security Department? Are we expected to believe no one in the NFL power structure ever considered going direct to the casino where the crime took place?
PUH-leeeeze!

4. Does anyone know what is the common practice for the Atlantic County Prosecutor, located in an area reliant on tourist dollars where many of these tourists imbibe a significant of alcohol, for similar cases of assault/domestic abuse for a first time offense? Especially if the victim does not want to cooperate or prosecute?

I don't, but right or wrong, would hardly be surprised if anger management and probation are not unusual.

5. How will the NFL deal with 2 outstanding cases? Wait for ajudication before making a decision? Why would the alleged offenders hurry the process? Would it surprise anyone if trials. deals, or appeals were delayed until after the season?

If the Commish wants to suspend Rice for lying to him so be it.
But the video only confirms the obvious--Rice punched her and knocked her out and that has been known since February--what's new?
 
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Re: NFL 2014-15: Iron Fist Getting Rusty?

I guess I'm different from most others, but the video of Rice dragging her out of the elevator face first shocked me more than seeing him actually punch her. What did we think he did to her? She's lucky she didn't sustain permanent injuries or worse.

Condi Rice is available if the NFL wants to make a change at the top.
 
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Re: NFL 2014-15: Iron Fist Getting Rusty?

Rimbaud said:
Now you're saying saying she deserved it. Do you know anyone that's been in an abusive relationship? Because the ones I know of there's none where the victim left after the first instance (or the 2nd or the 3rd). In all cases I learned of the abuse well after the relationships ended when they finally felt safe enough to talk about. So I guess she's lucky to have gotten what was coming to her (in your ****ed up world view) recorded, because most of the time that's not the case. Hopefully now her friends can convince her to leave and that she'll be safe.

It's people like you who shame abuse victims into thinking they do deserve it and that they are the ones to blame. So **** you.
Click to expand...

Does anybody have a tissue? I need to wipe the spittle off my glasses.
 
Re: NFL 2014-15: Iron Fist Getting Rusty?

Rimbaud said:
Now you're saying saying she deserved it. Do you know anyone that's been in an abusive relationship? Because the ones I know of there's none where the victim left after the first instance (or the 2nd or the 3rd). In all cases I learned of the abuse well after the relationships ended when they finally felt safe enough to talk about. So I guess she's lucky to have gotten what was coming to her (in your ****ed up world view) recorded, because most of the time that's not the case. Hopefully now her friends can convince her to leave and that she'll be safe.

It's people like you who shame abuse victims into thinking they do deserve it and that they are the ones to blame. So **** you.
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I think I know what he's trying to say, but it was worded poorly:

If I hit you and then said "I love you" immediately after that, after a while, you would begin to believe that abuse = love.

That's one theory.

The other is "I'm to blame" (the classic victim theory)

I'm not saying she's totally innocent, but her mind is warped, and that has to be addressed. She is most certainly a victim here.
 
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