Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason

[Scott Biggar]

Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason

In Neumann's case (i haven't investigated the others as thoroughly), remember that the NCAA performed a level II compliance review of the aid program in 2007 and said it was in compliance with the rules. It was only later, when the general admissions could not keep up with the recruiting numbers from the athletic (not just hockey) team for international students that Neumann strayed out of bounds.

As Russel said, athletic departments are not allowed to see the financial aid numbers given to other students and coaches can't see those numbers for even their own players generally. The schools being found out of compliance is more due to administrative lapses than athletic department ones.

 

[ballgame]

Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason

In as much as I feel vacating a title is like trying to rewite history, I agree nothing should be gained from forcing a vacated title - IMO to mean anything, a school needs to voluntarily vacate it.

Norm you are one of the most knowledgeable people on this board and I respect your opinion. Beside the knowledge and experience you also provide great insight. But this is the one thing I completely disagree with. Don’t punish the players that won the National Championship because it’s not their fault. I don’t know who would be the blame but winning a National Champion is extremely hard. It’s a rare accomplishment and you could make an argument that breaking these rules helped them win. I would disagree with that assessment but don’t feel the players should pay this even though the current team is. Someone at NU said this funding is acceptable, the coaches saw an edge with recruiting and took advantage of it. They should have. Sounds like the real problem was no one talked to compliance.
I feel awful for the seniors on this team.
A playoff ban can really hurt a program with lost recruits. NCAA knows they are barely holding onto a handful of programs due to money concerns. This decision could take years to overcome.
To be clear cheating is wrong. Not saying it’s ok. But the damage is done.

Side question
Is this the Dennis Williams era? That program was dead until he cam along

 

[PSUChamps2001]

In Neumann's case (i haven't investigated the others as thoroughly), remember that the NCAA performed a level II compliance review of the aid program in 2007 and said it was in compliance with the rules. It was only later, when the general admissions could not keep up with the recruiting numbers from the athletic (not just hockey) team for international students that Neumann strayed out of bounds.

As Russel said, athletic departments are not allowed to see the financial aid numbers given to other students and coaches can't see those numbers for even their own players generally. The schools being found out of compliance is more due to administrative lapses than athletic department ones.

so it went from complience to 99%??? Sounds more like the NCAA *** up and soothed it over by allowing them just probation....

 

[norm1909]

Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason

Norm you are one of the most knowledgeable people on this board and I respect your opinion. Beside the knowledge and experience you also provide great insight. But this is the one thing I completely disagree with. Don’t punish the players that won the National Championship because it’s not their fault. I don’t know who would be the blame but winning a National Champion is extremely hard. It’s a rare accomplishment and you could make an argument that breaking these rules helped them win. I would disagree with that assessment but don’t feel the players should pay this even though the current team is. Someone at NU said this funding is acceptable, the coaches saw an edge with recruiting and took advantage of it. They should have. Sounds like the real problem was no one talked to compliance.
I feel awful for the seniors on this team.
A playoff ban can really hurt a program with lost recruits. NCAA knows they are barely holding onto a handful of programs due to money concerns. This decision could take years to overcome.
To be clear cheating is wrong. Not saying it’s ok. But the damage is done.

Side question
Is this the Dennis Williams era? That program was dead until he cam along

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear - I agree that it is wrong to punish the players - they won the title, you can't rewrite history. If the PLAYER'S broke the rules than THEY didn't legitimately win the title, otherwise find a way to punish THOSE responsible.

This school's forfeit, while not of the NCAA title, probably did it right.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason

so it went from complience to 99%??? Sounds more like the NCAA *** up and soothed it over by allowing them just probation....

Remy. you haven't been paying attention to what I've been writing on this subject for the past three years. The NCAA changed the way they look at these numbers. How much clearer can I be? I know for a fact that Geneseo and Potsdam received a bill of health from the NCAA (and now I learn so did Neumann). Then, the NCAA reinterpreted the numbers, and warned them, but never gave them the percent goal they had to meet. At that point, the schools were driving blind. Which usually results in a crash, and that's what happened.

So, yes, in some ways the NCAA was not going to nail them with blatant cheating, because for a time, the NCAA said they were NOT cheating. This is the key point people keep failing to understand. That, and the fact the coaches DO NOT KNOW which players, if any, are receiving aid and how much aid and what aid program it's coming from, which has resulted in horrible accusations against the coaches going back to some Geneseo fans bashing Schultz endlessly. A Division III coach is only allowed to end a potential recruit to the financial aid office. After that, it is only between the student and the financial aid office.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason

Remy. you haven't been paying attention to what I've been writing on this subject for the past three years. The NCAA changed the way they look at these numbers. How much clearer can I be? I know for a fact that Geneseo and Potsdam received a bill of health from the NCAA (and now I learn so did Neumann). Then, the NCAA reinterpreted the numbers, and warned them, but never gave them the percent goal they had to meet. At that point, the schools were driving blind. Which usually results in a crash, and that's what happened.

So, yes, in some ways the NCAA was not going to nail them with blatant cheating, because for a time, the NCAA said they were NOT cheating. This is the key point people keep failing to understand. That, and the fact the coaches DO NOT KNOW which players, if any, are receiving aid and how much aid and what aid program it's coming from, which has resulted in horrible accusations against the coaches going back to some Geneseo fans bashing Schultz endlessly. A Division III coach is only allowed to end a potential recruit to the financial aid office. After that, it is only between the student and the financial aid office.

It is absolutely NOT prudent and most likely against state and federal law for the coaches and athletic departments to know the financial aid being received by INDIVIDUAL students, it is however their contractual obligation to avoid "de facto" scholarships. They MUST work with the financial aid office to make sure they are compliant - lists can easily be provided with names redacted - if the sample pool is so small as to prevent individual identities from being able to be deduced - then that alone will provide reasonable expectation of compliance. It doesn't require much more than reasonable common sense to know what an "equal ratio" of participation is. No one would argue within the bounds of standard deviation, but blatant outliers KNOW who they are - or are guilty by ignorance.

 

[NUProf]

Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason

It is absolutely NOT prudent and most likely against state and federal law for the coaches and athletic departments to know the financial aid being received by INDIVIDUAL students, it is however their contractual obligation to avoid "de facto" scholarships. They MUST work with the financial aid office to make sure they are compliant - lists can easily be provided with names redacted - if the sample pool is so small as to prevent individual identities from being able to be deduced - then that alone will provide reasonable expectation of compliance. It doesn't require much more than reasonable common sense to know what an "equal ratio" of participation is. No one would argue within the bounds of standard deviation, but blatant outliers KNOW who they are - or are guilty by ignorance.

It would seem logical that somebody could produce a summary report which compared the rates of inclusion of athletes in various financial aid pools. It would also seem logical that there would need to be some kind of liaison between the athletic and FA office at some level so that the athletic department would be able monitor the situation. It can be on some kind of arm's length basis so that the athletic department isn't telling the FA people what to do.

 

[cooperalls]

Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason

So why did Genesseo and Buffalo State have to miss the post season and schools like Potsdam, Neumann and Morrisville do not have to miss post season if all of sudden their players have to pay the normal tuition?

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason

It is absolutely NOT prudent and most likely against state and federal law for the coaches and athletic departments to know the financial aid being received by INDIVIDUAL students, it is however their contractual obligation to avoid "de facto" scholarships. They MUST work with the financial aid office to make sure they are compliant - lists can easily be provided with names redacted - if the sample pool is so small as to prevent individual identities from being able to be deduced - then that alone will provide reasonable expectation of compliance. It doesn't require much more than reasonable common sense to know what an "equal ratio" of participation is. No one would argue within the bounds of standard deviation, but blatant outliers KNOW who they are - or are guilty by ignorance.

True. But the coaches would not know how their particular team is doing. The reports would probably just be a summary amongst all student-athletes. And the point I was making is the coaches themselves have no idea how their team is doing. They can only rely on those keeping a watch on the practice whether the school is properly operating within the rules. And, if they are not, it is up to the school to make changes to comply, not the coaches. In the past, people have blamed the coaches. The point I am making is the coaches have nothing to do with this.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason

So why did Genesseo and Buffalo State have to miss the post season and schools like Potsdam, Neumann and Morrisville do not have to miss post season if all of sudden their players have to pay the normal tuition?

Look, I don't mean to sound obnoxious, but this has been explained a million times before, half of that in this thread alone. I'm not going to waste any more time pounding the keyboard if people are not going to read what's being written. BTW, Potsdam hockey was not eligible for the playoffs last year. The fact that they would have finished out of the playoff picture anyway is immaterial. And Morrisville is NOT eligible for the playoffs this year.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason

True. But the coaches would not know how their particular team is doing. The reports would probably just be a summary amongst all student-athletes. And the point I was making is the coaches themselves have no idea how their team is doing. They can only rely on those keeping a watch on the practice whether the school is properly operating within the rules. And, if they are not, it is up to the school to make changes to comply, not the coaches. In the past, people have blamed the coaches. The point I am making is the coaches have nothing to do with this.

WHO besides the coaches should have the highest concern that they are in compliance with the NCAA policies? I'm not saying they have to be the actual "go for's", but they ARE the one's who place their heads on the line - they are the ones who are responsible for AND to their players - they have to make sure ALL the players are doing their part, and not just the guys on the ice. The coaches recruited them in, it IS the coaches who know and read (or should) the NCAA manuals, they need to see that the game plan is followed. No season lasts 12 months, the coaches must be at the forefront of compliance.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason

WHO besides the coaches should have the highest concern that they are in compliance with the NCAA policies? I'm not saying they have to be the actual "go for's", but they ARE the one's who place their heads on the line - they are the ones who are responsible for AND to their players - they have to make sure ALL the players are doing their part, and not just the guys on the ice. The coaches recruited them in, it IS the coaches who know and read (or should) the NCAA manuals, they need to see that the game plan is followed. No season lasts 12 months, the coaches must be at the forefront of compliance.

A) The coaches don't have enough information concerning their team to be able to do anything about it.

B) The coaches are NOT ALLOWED to know anything about the financial aid packages their teams get. So, even if there was a known problem, they are NOT ALLOWED to get involved per NCAA recruiting regulations and financial aid privacy laws.

It is the AD and compliance officer's responsibility. If the coaches (on a collective level) get wind of something wrong, they could go to the AD and say, "Omigod, we have to do something," but they are not allowed to approach the financial aid office themselves nor are they allowed to talk to individual players about it. I don't know why people are finding this concept difficult to understand.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason

A) The coaches don't have enough information concerning their team to be able to do anything about it.

B) The coaches are NOT ALLOWED to know anything about the financial aid packages their teams get. So, even if there was a known problem, they are NOT ALLOWED to get involved per NCAA recruiting regulations and financial aid privacy laws.

It is the AD and compliance officer's responsibility. If the coaches (on a collective level) get wind of something wrong, they could go to the AD and say, "Omigod, we have to do something," but they are not allowed to approach the financial aid office themselves nor are they allowed to talk to individual players about it. I don't know why people are finding this concept difficult to understand.

The coach's role is to coach the players and hold them responsible for their their actions AND that means ALL the players - INCLUDING the AD and compliance officer's responsibility. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

The Emperor's New Clothes

Many years ago there lived an emperor who loved beautiful new clothes so much that he spent all his money on being finely dressed. His only interest was in going to the theater or in riding about in his carriage where he could show off his new clothes. He had a different costume for every hour of the day. Indeed, where it was said of other kings that they were at court, it could only be said of him that he was in his dressing room!

One day two swindlers came to the emperor's city. They said that they were weavers, claiming that they knew how to make the finest cloth imaginable. Not only were the colors and the patterns extraordinarily beautiful, but in addition, this material had the amazing property that it was to be invisible to anyone who was incompetent or stupid.

"It would be wonderful to have clothes made from that cloth," thought the emperor. "Then I would know which of my men are unfit for their positions, and I'd also be able to tell clever people from stupid ones." So he immediately gave the two swindlers a great sum of money to weave their cloth for him.

They set up their looms and pretended to go to work, although there was nothing at all on the looms. They asked for the finest silk and the purest gold, all of which they hid away, continuing to work on the empty looms, often late into the night.

"I would really like to know how they are coming with the cloth!" thought the emperor, but he was a bit uneasy when he recalled that anyone who was unfit for his position or stupid would not be able to see the material. Of course, he himself had nothing to fear, but still he decided to send someone else to see how the work was progressing.

"I'll send my honest old minister to the weavers," thought the emperor. He's the best one to see how the material is coming. He is very sensible, and no one is more worthy of his position than he.

So the good old minister went into the hall where the two swindlers sat working at their empty looms. "Goodness!" thought the old minister, opening his eyes wide. "I cannot see a thing!" But he did not say so.

The two swindlers invited him to step closer, asking him if it wasn't a beautiful design and if the colors weren't magnificent. They pointed to the empty loom, and the poor old minister opened his eyes wider and wider. He still could see nothing, for nothing was there. "Gracious" he thought. "Is it possible that I am stupid? I have never thought so. Am I unfit for my position? No one must know this. No, it will never do for me to say that I was unable to see the material."

"You aren't saying anything!" said one of the weavers.

"Oh, it is magnificent! The very best!" said the old minister, peering through his glasses. "This pattern and these colors! Yes, I'll tell the emperor that I am very satisfied with it!"

"That makes us happy!" said the two weavers, and they called the colors and the unusual pattern by name. The old minister listened closely so that he would be able say the same things when he reported back to the emperor, and that is exactly what he did.

The swindlers now asked for more money, more silk, and more gold, all of which they hid away. Then they continued to weave away as before on the empty looms.

The emperor sent other officials as well to observe the weavers' progress. They too were startled when they saw nothing, and they too reported back to him how wonderful the material was, advising him to have it made into clothes that he could wear in a grand procession. The entire city was alive in praise of the cloth. "Magnifique! Nysseligt! Excellent!" they said, in all languages. The emperor awarded the swindlers with medals of honor, bestowing on each of them the title Lord Weaver.

The swindlers stayed up the entire night before the procession was to take place, burning more than sixteen candles. Everyone could see that they were in a great rush to finish the emperor's new clothes. They pretended to take the material from the looms. They cut in the air with large scissors. They sewed with needles but without any thread. Finally they announced, "Behold! The clothes are finished!"

The emperor came to them with his most distinguished cavaliers. The two swindlers raised their arms as though they were holding something and said, "Just look at these trousers! Here is the jacket! This is the cloak!" and so forth. "They are as light as spider webs! You might think that you didn't have a thing on, but that is the good thing about them."

"Yes," said the cavaliers, but they couldn't see a thing, for nothing was there.

"Would his imperial majesty, if it please his grace, kindly remove his clothes." said the swindlers. "Then we will fit you with the new ones, here in front of the large mirror."

The emperor took off all his clothes, and the swindlers pretended to dress him, piece by piece, with the new ones that were to be fitted. They took hold of his waist and pretended to tie something about him. It was the train. Then the emperor turned and looked into the mirror.

"Goodness, they suit you well! What a wonderful fit!" they all said. "What a pattern! What colors! Such luxurious clothes!"

"The canopy to be carried above your majesty awaits outside," said the grandmaster of ceremonies.

"Yes, I am ready!" said the emperor. "Don't they fit well?" He turned once again toward the mirror, because it had to appear as though he were admiring himself in all his glory.

The chamberlains who were to carry the train held their hands just above the floor as if they were picking up the train. As they walked they pretended to hold the train high, for they could not let anyone notice that they could see nothing.

The emperor walked beneath the beautiful canopy in the procession, and all the people in the street and in their windows said, "Goodness, the emperor's new clothes are incomparable! What a beautiful train on his jacket. What a perfect fit!" No one wanted it to be noticed that he could see nothing, for then it would be said that he was unfit for his position or that he was stupid. None of the emperor's clothes had ever before received such praise.

"But he doesn't have anything on!" said a small child.

"Good Lord, let us hear the voice of an innocent child!" said the father, and whispered to another what the child had said.

"A small child said that he doesn't have anything on!"

Finally everyone was saying, "He doesn't have anything on!"

The emperor shuddered, for he knew that they were right, but he thought, "The procession must go on!" He carried himself even more proudly, and the chamberlains walked along behind carrying the train that wasn't there.

 

[KnightsOfTheRound]

Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason

A) The coaches don't have enough information concerning their team to be able to do anything about it.

B) The coaches are NOT ALLOWED to know anything about the financial aid packages their teams get. So, even if there was a known problem, they are NOT ALLOWED to get involved per NCAA recruiting regulations and financial aid privacy laws.

It is the AD and compliance officer's responsibility. If the coaches (on a collective level) get wind of something wrong, they could go to the AD and say, "Omigod, we have to do something," but they are not allowed to approach the financial aid office themselves nor are they allowed to talk to individual players about it. I don't know why people are finding this concept difficult to understand.

The part that I find a bit hard to understand is with all of the legal requirements surrounding privacy of financial aid information, and NCAA regulations barring coaches and even ADs from becoming involved in their players' financial aid status, how is anybody able to have a complete enough picture of the current ratios of students receiving aid in order to be accountable for managing their school's compliance? Driving blind is the metaphor you used above, it and seems appropriate given the lack of transparency all around. A lot of these D3 schools don't have enormous athletics departments to devote significant time to this, and with all of the red tape preventing anyone from having a complete picture of the situation I am not surprised that some schools have had difficulties remaining on the side of compliance.

Of course, there is less of an excuse now that several schools have been cited and punished, which gives those that haven't yet been cited time to develop systems to make sure they are in compliance. But before? How could anybody have known what practices to avoid if nobody was even looking at the data and nobody was really accountable for monitoring it?

 

[norm1909]

Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason

The part that I find a bit hard to understand is with all of the legal requirements surrounding privacy of financial aid information, and NCAA regulations barring coaches and even ADs from becoming involved in their players' financial aid status, how is anybody able to have a complete enough picture of the current ratios of students receiving aid in order to be accountable for managing their school's compliance? Driving blind is the metaphor you used above, it and seems appropriate given the lack of transparency all around. A lot of these D3 schools don't have enormous athletics departments to devote significant time to this, and with all of the red tape preventing anyone from having a complete picture of the situation I am not surprised that some schools have had difficulties remaining on the side of compliance.

Of course, there is less of an excuse now that several schools have been cited and punished, which gives those that haven't yet been cited time to develop systems to make sure they are in compliance. But before? How could anybody have known what practices to avoid if nobody was even looking at the data and nobody was really accountable for monitoring it?

Don't fall for the "I didn't know" or "It's not my job" routines. The coach is responsible for those he recruits, he is responsible for their coaching AND for insuring that his team follows the rules - ALL the rules. The coach is responsible for seeing his team gets to their away games, yet he doesn't have to drive the bus or make the beds in the hotel room. No one expects the coach to physically ensure compliance but he is the "bottom line" - he needs to make sure everyone is doing their part - and if the schools don't want to make the effort of legally meeting their obligations then they need to pay the price. A compliance officer is a skilled positionhttp://www.hr.utah.edu/comp/jobdescriptions/viewjd.php?id=719, but it isn't really all that difficult - AND there are people to help - especially those "small" schools.

 

[KnightsOfTheRound]

Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason

A compliance officer is a skilled positionhttp://www.hr.utah.edu/comp/jobdescriptions/viewjd.php?id=719, but it isn't really all that difficult - AND there are people to help - especially those "small" schools.

Thanks for helping me make my point. Utah is a large division 1 university. I am not surprised they have a full-time compliance officer. I can't speak to all d3 schools, but before posting I checked the staff page for my alma mater's athletics department and noticed nobody with the title "compliance officer," which means compliance is almost certainly somebody on staff's part time commitment. Given that and the relative complexity of the stated requirements it is not surprising some of these schools were not in compliance.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason

Thanks for helping me make my point. Utah is a large division 1 university. I am not surprised they have a full-time compliance officer. I can't speak to all d3 schools, but before posting I checked the staff page for my alma mater's athletics department and noticed nobody with the title "compliance officer," which means compliance is almost certainly somebody on staff's part time commitment. Given that and the relative complexity of the stated requirements it is not surprising some of these schools were not in compliance.

Not every school even has a full-time coach, but the task of compliance is a role that MUST be fulfilled, and you are correct that a "large division 1 university" is going to have more resources. But nevertheless, if you choose to not stay on the porch, then you have to do what you have to do. The starting salary at "large division 1 university" is going to be a lot better than that of a small DIII school - but guess what - everyone has to start someplace - there ARE people willing and able to work at a small DIII school, they might be looking for that opportunity at that "large division 1 university" but they have to start some place. Also note that the requirements of a "large division 1 university" are likely to require a full-time position, but a small DIII school could combine the tasks with similar positions (some schools have their coach also be their rink manager for example), there is NO excuse for ignorance or lack of compliance.

I also found this worth reading.

 

[KnightsOfTheRound]

Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason

Not every school even has a full-time coach, but the task of compliance is a role that MUST be fulfilled, and you are correct that a "large division 1 university" is going to have more resources. But nevertheless, if you choose to not stay on the porch, then you have to do what you have to do. The starting salary at "large division 1 university" is going to be a lot better than that of a small DIII school - but guess what - everyone has to start someplace - there ARE people willing and able to work at a small DIII school, they might be looking for that opportunity at that "large division 1 university" but they have to start some place. Also note that the requirements of a "large division 1 university" are likely to require a full-time position, but a small DIII school could combine the tasks with similar positions, there is NO excuse for ignorance or lack of compliance.

Of course I agree compliance is important no matter the size of the school and that somebody must do it. With my original comment I just wanted to point out that given the wall that exists between financial aid and the athletics department, and compounded by the fact that nobody was even looking for cases of non-compliance on this issue before schools like Geneseo, Potsdam, and Buff State got cited around the Canadian grant initiatives, it's not surprising that there was non-compliance at some schools. Now that the NCAA is making this an area of emphasis, schools don't have an excuse anymore. Every school needs systems to make sure their numbers are in order. Big and small, rich and poor.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason

Of course I agree compliance is important no matter the size of the school and that somebody must do it. With my original comment I just wanted to point out that given the wall that exists between financial aid and the athletics department, and compounded by the fact that nobody was even looking for cases of non-compliance on this issue before schools like Geneseo, Potsdam, and Buff State got cited around the Canadian grant initiatives, it's not surprising that there was non-compliance at some schools. Now that the NCAA is making this an area of emphasis, schools don't have an excuse anymore. Every school needs systems to make sure their numbers are in order. Big and small, rich and poor.

Well said, and it is true that regulators always go after the "biggest fish", and unfortunately for some, their fish grow to "keeper size" sooner than others.

Also, I added this "I also found this worth reading." after your post, it includes a nice "best practices" section.

 

[LakerEagleLover]

Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason

It's a program for foreign students - not foreign hockey players, foreign cross country runners or foreign swimmers...all the restrictions Russell has laid out (over and over and over) are true...so unless your hockey coach is ALSO the Athletic Director and/or the Director of Admissions and/or the Director of Financial Aid, the hockey coach cannot hold all the players accountable to make sure the school is in compliance...he/she can't even make sure their team is in compliance in this area...

Ultimately, the Office of the President has to make NCAA D3 compliance a full-time focus in a part-time world to have a shot of not tripping over the swollen feet of the NCAA...