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Movies 52 - 1917: Sonic the Bad Boys of Prey

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JF_Gophers said:
That seems like a bad trait for a movie. If someone has to carry it, its probably not good?
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He didnt carry it cause it was bad, he carried it because he was in every scene and was the focus of everything that happened. The entire worldview is specific to whatever is going on with him in his mind. It is why the audience doesnt know what is real and what is not because neither does he.

Kep,

The Waynes being dicks was awesome. Not cause I think they are, but from the perspective or Fleck they would be just that awful...a symptom of the disease that has infested Gotham and destroy Arthur's mother and him. The scene in the bathroom is the perfect microcosm of the entire film.
 
Handyman said:
Kep,

The Waynes being dicks was awesome. Not cause I think they are, but from the perspective or Fleck they would be just that awful...a symptom of the disease that has infested Gotham and destroy Arthur's mother and him. The scene in the bathroom is the perfect microcosm of the entire film.
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Exactly.

There has always been a bitter taste of fascism at the heart of Batman (in the way that there is an innocent American goodness at the heart of Superman).

The Patriot Act and the Forever Wars and America 2001-20 was Batman. F-ck that right wing noise.
 
FWIW usually in the future Batman becomes a form of Fascist. He is never able to stop himself from going too far. What's sad is people seem to love that...
 
Handyman said:
FWIW usually in the future Batman becomes a form of Fascist. He is never able to stop himself from going too far. What's sad is people seem to love that...
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Do they like the actions he's taking or the idea that he's a flawed person trying to do right by the world? I've never read any Batman comics, or what others think of him. All that I know of him comes from the movies and TV shows.
 
St. Clown said:
Do they like the actions he's taking or the idea that he's a flawed person trying to do right by the world? I've never read any Batman comics, or what others think of him. All that I know of him comes from the movies and TV shows.
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They love that he becomes the "My Way or the Highway" type character. That is where all the crap about Batman fighting Superman comes from...The Dark Knight Returns by Frank Miller. It is years in the future and Batman has retired and Gotham falls into disrepair. Batman comes back into action and basically turns the knob to 11. Superman is dispatched by the White House (cause he is apparently a Government lackey) to talk him down but inevitably Batman goes full derp and they fight to the the death.

I should mention this is one of the most beloved comics that exists and I absolutely hate it because Frank Miller is a misogynistic twat who fundamentally doesn't understand Superman and thinks Batman is cool because he is like dark and brooding. That version of Batman and Superman has basically persisted since the early 1980s and lead to Batman becoming one of the 2 most popular characters in the world. (it is usually between him and Spidey) I hate it though. I mean at one point in the comics (Tower of Babel story) Batman gets kicked out of the Justice League because he creates contingency plans to defeat every member and they get highjacked and almost destroy the league. (they do this in the Justice League cartoon as well kind of) To me that level of paranoia is everything I hate about the character but to the masses that is what they love. It is why the comic Batman is the one indexes use to see the health of the industry his sales are almost always the same month to month without fail. No other comic is like that even Spiderman.

The future is never very bright for Batman even in the cartoons. I mean in Batman Beyond (which is a personal fave) Bruce Wayne is a d-bag until Terry shows up and still is for quite a while. Batman always ends up cut off from everyone. Dick Grayson usually cuts him out of his life, Gordon dies, Batgirl is paralyzed (cause Alan Moore is an awful human) and other Robins end up dead. He cuts the Justice League out as well. Bruce becomes isolated and alone and loses the battle within himself. The best versions of Batman in any medium is a struggle between Bruce Wayne and Batman. Batman is the fascist side willing to do anything to stop criminals and protect Gotham and Bruce Wayne is the philanthropic son of the Waynes who is just trying to live a semi normal life and make sure other kids dont have to go through what he did. In the future Batman always wins to the point that Bruce Wayne often is rarely seen. (kind of like in The Dark Knight Rises)

(I worked in a comic shop and this stuff was discussed a lot!)
 
Handyman said:
They love that he becomes the "My Way or the Highway" type character. That is where all the crap about Batman fighting Superman comes from...The Dark Knight Returns by Frank Miller. It is years in the future and Batman has retired and Gotham falls into disrepair. Batman comes back into action and basically turns the knob to 11. Superman is dispatched by the White House (cause he is apparently a Government lackey) to talk him down but inevitably Batman goes full derp and they fight to the the death.

I should mention this is one of the most beloved comics that exists and I absolutely hate it because Frank Miller is a misogynistic twat who fundamentally doesn't understand Superman and thinks Batman is cool because he is like dark and brooding. That version of Batman and Superman has basically persisted since the early 1980s and lead to Batman becoming one of the 2 most popular characters in the world. (it is usually between him and Spidey) I hate it though. I mean at one point in the comics (Tower of Babel story) Batman gets kicked out of the Justice League because he creates contingency plans to defeat every member and they get highjacked and almost destroy the league. (they do this in the Justice League cartoon as well kind of) To me that level of paranoia is everything I hate about the character but to the masses that is what they love. It is why the comic Batman is the one indexes use to see the health of the industry his sales are almost always the same month to month without fail. No other comic is like that even Spiderman.

The future is never very bright for Batman even in the cartoons. I mean in Batman Beyond (which is a personal fave) Bruce Wayne is a d-bag until Terry shows up and still is for quite a while. Batman always ends up cut off from everyone. Dick Grayson usually cuts him out of his life, Gordon dies, Batgirl is paralyzed (cause Alan Moore is an awful human) and other Robins end up dead. He cuts the Justice League out as well. Bruce becomes isolated and alone and loses the battle within himself. The best versions of Batman in any medium is a struggle between Bruce Wayne and Batman. Batman is the fascist side willing to do anything to stop criminals and protect Gotham and Bruce Wayne is the philanthropic son of the Waynes who is just trying to live a semi normal life and make sure other kids dont have to go through what he did. In the future Batman always wins to the point that Bruce Wayne often is rarely seen. (kind of like in The Dark Knight Rises)

(I worked in a comic shop and this stuff was discussed a lot!)
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This is all done to contrast with the characters around him though. Batman is the "internal" villain when it comes to DC's good guys (You can make a case for Tower of Babel being a result of DC testing the waters with Emerald Twilight/Hal Jordan) after seeing what Miller did with Batman in The Dark Knight Returns. DC saw that you can't do a full heel turn like they did with Hal Jordan. By keeping Batman as an overall crime fighter while displeasing most of his colleagues, they were able to attain the best of both worlds here and play both sides of the card at the same time.
 
SJHovey said:
Probably safe to assume "studied Batman comics" will appear somewhere in the answer.

I guess we should count ourselves lucky he didn't work in a Hallmark store or something. Or porno shop.
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I'm actually serious. If he was an artist I am going to be impressed by someone on the Cafe for the first time ever.
 
Kepler said:
I'm actually serious. If he was an artist I am going to be impressed by someone on the Cafe for the first time ever.
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I can't draw stick figures :^)

I worked retail it is nothing impressive. Fun job but I saw a lot of why the industry is kind of a joke and doomed to crash and burn. 99.999999% of the customers were males between the ages of 25-45 with maybe 2 regular women customers and zero kids. (unless they were buying anime) Since the job didn't entail much creativity I did a lot of research into the behind the scenes stuff going on and learned quite a bit. If Warner didn't own DC and Di$ney didn't own Marvel comics would be dead at this point especially monthlies. Since both are corporate owned prices are now higher, page counts are lower and everything is built for the big crossover super stories. While that works for films it is unsustainable for comics because it can cost hundreds of dollars to keep up. Now they are basically IP farms...even the hardcores are dropping out of buying them.

Brick and mortar comic shops have been dying a slow death for almost 15 years. (actually longer) Even with the popularity of the MCU they are shedding customers year to year because it is expensive, wastes space and most people grow out of it. My old shop was going to close when I worked there but a relative of Stan Lee bought it and it survived...barely. Most make their money selling overpriced memorabilia to collectors because comics is just not profitable. Comic shops are just like book stores...they are relics of the past that cater to a very very small niche of a niche.

Honestly the best part of working there was talking to long time collectors. There was a guy who came in, lived in North Minneapolis and had been reading comics for 30 years. Could recite every story he read chapter and verse. When I set up the Facebook Page and wrote the blog for the store I had a section where people could try and stump him. Only happened once and it was me who did it. I learned a lot about stories from before my time collecting. I have heard every permutation of the stupid geek fights you can imagine. I also saw how misogynistic and disgusting a lot of the people in and around the industry are (especially collectors) and how badly a lot of the creators were treated.
 
RaceBoarder said:
This is all done to contrast with the characters around him though. Batman is the "internal" villain when it comes to DC's good guys (You can make a case for Tower of Babel being a result of DC testing the waters with Emerald Twilight/Hal Jordan) after seeing what Miller did with Batman in The Dark Knight Returns. DC saw that you can't do a full heel turn like they did with Hal Jordan. By keeping Batman as an overall crime fighter while displeasing most of his colleagues, they were able to attain the best of both worlds here and play both sides of the card at the same time.
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Meh. TDKR is an overrated piece of crap Emerald Twilight was much better. (even if you don't like the Kyle Raynor part) Hal's fall was always much better than the "I am Batman and I am super prepared so I hate the world" version of Bruce Wayne. Frank Miller nailed Batman in Year One...but everything else he has done with Batman has been utter crap IMHO. It is boring, and worse it is just not heroic. Denis O'Neill was ten times the writer (and Neal Adams a much better drawer than anyone Miller worked with) and was able to convey the same issues without trying to turn Batman into Wolverine. (Todd McFarland is like this as well) Batman doesn't need to be bordering on evil to make him interesting it is just lazy.

Tower of Babel is actually a very good story...but it showcases the parts of Batman I just never liked. At least in that story though Batman is proven to be wrong. Post Miller Batman was the "Bat-God" who was always 5 steps ahead of everyone and never made mistakes. TOB his paranoia comes back to haunt him and he is forced to reckon with the fact that he screwed up. (this got aped later in Infinite Crisis to much less effect) Waid does a very good job writing Batman for the most part outside of Hush (as does Morrison) so it works.

The problem I have with Batman fans is they contradict themselves. They love that he is "human" but they want him to be treated as a god. He is all knowing, all powerful and omnipresent. He is never wrong, never goes too far and can always win. That is the exact opposite of being human.
 
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I have no idea how I missed this movie when it came out, but Operation Odessa on Netflix is hilarious!

It's a documentary, but honestly it really wouldn't fly as just a fictional movie because it's too crazy. Basically, a Russian low level hitman/mobster from Brooklyn, who goes by the name "Tarzan" flees NYC when his partner gets murdered, heads to Miami and forms a partnership with a Cuban cocaine smuggler and a low grade used car salesman, a partnership that sees them come amazingly close to purchasing a Russian navy submarine and selling it to the Cali cartel. A definite watch.
 
Tommy Boy is an awful movie that is filled with quotable lines which is why it is loved. It also helps if you are...say...not sober in some capacity ;^)
 
Timing is key as well. If you are in the 32-45 age range, this movie was around at a pivotal time in your life, which deepens its importance.
 
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