More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is...

[kdilks]

Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

Why would having games on-campus increase attendance? This was about cost, not location. Mariucci wouldn't have had more butts in the seats if the prices were the same, while the X would have had more if the prices were lowered.

Travel and lodging are all part of the total cost. Eliminating travel and lodging for one fanbase by having on-campus regionals like at the X is the first step to increasing attendance. Having appropriate ticket prices once that becomes the primary cost is the second step.

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

I'm pretty sure hockey has by far the highest % of teams making the NCAA tournament of any sport right now. Going back to 12 teams is something that's potentially going to happen anyways, especially if any more programs fold.

There's nothing I'd like more than a return to the 12-team field, but I don't see it happening. Are there going to be more teams folding over the next few years than there will be teams added? With the Big-<s>10</s> 6 conference set to get going, maybe not.

Plus, talk about admitting defeat . . . I'm not sure the NCAA is ready to choke down a slice of humble pie that large.

 

[kdilks]

Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

There's nothing I'd like more than a return to the 12-team field, but I don't see it happening. Are there going to be more teams folding over the next few years than there will be teams added? With the Big-<s>10</s> 6 conference set to get going, maybe not.

Plus, talk about admitting defeat . . . I'm not sure the NCAA is ready to choke down a slice of humble pie that large.

There's already been a net loss of 3 (-Wayne State, Iona, Findlay, Fairfield, + Penn State ?) teams since they moved to a 16 team tournament. Illinois seems like the only feasible possibility for an add, and I can think of a few that are risks to fold in the next years given their financials and how realignment turned out.

I'm sure the NCAA hockey committee wouldn't do it, but I can see this being something handed down to them from above.

 

[Rover]

Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

Coming back to my first point if these arenas are drawing 10k what's the freakin problem? Yes they will look less than half full but who cares? No eastern school has an arena that big anyways and you should give people access to the event. Drop the ticket price and promote it a bit better.

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

Travel and lodging are all part of the total cost. Eliminating travel and lodging for one fanbase by having on-campus regionals like at the X is the first step to increasing attendance. Having appropriate ticket prices once that becomes the primary cost is the second step.

Unless proper seeding is totally abandoned to assist teams form the west you are going to be hard pressed to have a regional prevent at least two teams from flying - which is already happening as we speak. Worcester was certainly close enough to a major city to override location as a factor for at least one team, whereas prices at the X and on the heels of the HS tourney and FF made it hard to have more show there.

btw - I'm not against on-campus sites, I'm against the notion you could logically plan for the higher seeds to host and/or expect to eliminate major travel without abandoning seeding.

 

[kdilks]

Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

Unless banding is totally abandoned to assist teams form the west you are never going to have a regional that isn't going to prevent at least two teams from flying - which is already happening as we speak. Worcester was certainly close enough to a major city to override location has a factor, where as prices at the X and on the heels of the HS tourney and FF made it hard to add more there.

btw - I'm not against on-campus sites, I'm against the notion you could logically plan for the higher seeds to host.

The point is you'll always have at least one team that doesn't have to fly, as opposed to this year in Green Bay where everybody had to fly in.

Worcester isn't close enough to Boston to completely override location as a factor. MBTA doesn't run late enough to make public transportation an option, and the extra hour of driving makes a difference for the locals when the final is at 8pm on a Sunday night.

 

[joecct]

Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

Coming in late, so if this has been talked about, sorry...

Wasn't there something in the NCAA News last year that D-I was talking about on-campus 2/3 for the 1st round then two "Super Regionals" where the 4 survivors from East or West meet for one night to get down to the Frozen Four?

 

[moose97]

Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

There's already been a net loss of 3 (-Wayne State, Iona, Findlay, Fairfield, + Penn State ?) teams since they moved to a 16 team tournament.

Well, if you're going back to Iona ('03), Fairfield ('03), Findlay ('04) and Wayne State ('08), then you have to put Robert Morris ('04) and RIT ('05) on the + side, making it a net loss of just 1.

btw - I'm not against on-campus sites, I'm against the notion you could logically plan for the higher seeds to host.

The NCAA charters planes to fly teams to regionals as it is. Why couldn't you fly them to home sites instead? The only issues are: 1) arena availability; 2) arena suitability and; 3) hotel availability. And here's how I would address those issues:

1) Make teams book regional weekend before the season. Set a date (based on historical PWR numbers) that that weekend may be "released" for other uses.

2) Set minimum guidelines for regional hosts. Those that don't meet the minimum requirements - say a minimum seating requirement (and I'm fine with Union and their ~ 2000 seat barn - I'm thinking of American International or Sacred Heart) and minimum locker amenities must select a neutral site within reasonable proximity.

3) Same as #1. Make schools book a block of rooms until some "soft" date where they are mathematically eliminated for being a #1 seed. Also, if there aren't enough rooms available in the vicinity, revert to #2 - neutral site within reasonable proximity.

 

[CLS]

Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

I'm pretty sure hockey has by far the highest % of teams making the NCAA tournament of any sport right now. Going back to 12 teams is something that's potentially going to happen anyways, especially if any more programs fold.

No argument that it could happen. But why do it voluntarily, especially when what you propose doesn’t really require it? Even if we went to home rinks, which I don’t like, I’d try to stay at 16. The byes are inherently unfair. I’d rather have a team of dubious qualifications in the tournament than give byes.

What problem is there with potentially travelling three weeks in a row? That literally happens all the time. It can happen in the CCHA tournament right now (Bowling Green was @Northern, @Ferris, then @JLA).

Because it may happen now doesn’t mean it’s a good idea. They are students, you know. And in your example, you could have a team traveling six weeks in a row.

....As it stands now, a team like MSU that was solidly 5th in their conference and barely in the top 1/4 of all teams got roughly the same shot as the other 15 teams to win it all.

So the PWR gives results you evidently don’t agree with. But you’re proposing giving home ice on that same flawed system. Sorry, can’t agree.

 

[kdilks]

Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

Well, if you're going back to Iona ('03), Fairfield ('03), Findlay ('04) and Wayne State ('08), then you have to put Robert Morris ('04) and RIT ('05) on the + side, making it a net loss of just 1.

Didn't realize those teams were added that recently. Still, the tournament was expanded when it looked like there was going to be growth, there's been a net decline since then, and it looks like things are only going to contract further in the future.

No argument that it could happen. But why do it voluntarily, especially when what you propose doesn’t really require it? Even if we went to home rinks, which I don’t like, I’d try to stay at 16. The byes are inherently unfair. I’d rather have a team of dubious qualifications in the tournament than give byes.


Because it may happen now doesn’t mean it’s a good idea. They are students, you know. And in your example, you could have a team traveling six weeks in a row.


So the PWR gives results you evidently don’t agree with. But you’re proposing giving home ice on that same flawed system. Sorry, can’t agree.

Teams with byes would have earned the right to them. It would place more emphasis on the regular season, and make the conference tournaments more exciting. With the current system, is there terribly much incentive to finish in 1st as opposed to 14th?

The only change I made from the old system is removing the bye week between regionals and Frozen Four, which basically just exists to avoid going head to head against the Final Four. They wouldn't be doing anything terribly different from most other sports.

...I didn't say anything about the pairwise. My point is that the tournament should be exclusive and thorough enough so that the team that wins it all can make a legitimate claim at being the best in the land. Under the current system, if a team with a year like MSU happens to go on a 4 game winning streak against some good competition, that's barely enough to give them a legitimate claim at being in the top 10, let alone #1 overall.

 

[Craig P.]

Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

2007:
#3 Michigan State vs. #1 Notre Dame in Grand Rapids

For what it's worth, I didn't feel like MSU's advantage was overwhelming in this game (they had more people there, but it was an easy trip from ND and the Irish had a significant presence), and the outcome had much more to do with ND's double-OT game the night before than it did with any home ice advantage MSU may have enjoyed.

 

[chickod]

Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

Worcester isn't close enough to Boston to completely override location as a factor. MBTA doesn't run late enough to make public transportation an option, and the extra hour of driving makes a difference for the locals when the final is at 8pm on a Sunday night.

You're joking, right? First the discussion centers around people not having to fly to get to their teams's regional. Now you're saying that it's too far away if you can't take PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION to the game?????? I imagine people in just about every "non major metropolitan area" are getting a good chuckle out of that one. Do you think fans in upstate New York can take the subway to Albany? Or the fans in Ann Arbor can take the monorail to Detroit??? And as for the 8:00 p.m. game in Worcester - give me a break. So what? It's 35 miles to Boston. People in Maine or out West drive HOURS routinely to get places.

This type of nonsense just shows exactly how provincial Bostonians are (what other city calls themselves "The Hub" - as if the world revolves around them?). Get over yourself. Just stick to going to the Beanpot if you want to take "The T" to the game. Jeez... Now I know why no BU and BC fans are at these games, even though they're two of the most storied programs in college hockey (and I don't even know who you are a fan of, but you seem to be speaking for Boston people). Embarrassing...

 

[CLS]

Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

Didn't realize those teams were added that recently. Still, the tournament was expanded when it looked like there was going to be growth, there's been a net decline since then, and it looks like things are only going to contract further in the future.



Teams with byes would have earned the right to them. It would place more emphasis on the regular season, and make the conference tournaments more exciting. With the current system, is there terribly much incentive to finish in 1st as opposed to 14th?

If there isn’t any incentive now, then why do teams try to finish in first place now? Do you see any evidence that teams bag the season and don’t care whether they finish 1st or 14th? I see inconsistency, as you’d expect, but I don’t see teams that lack incentive to finish first or fourteenth.

The only change I made from the old system is removing the bye week between regionals and Frozen Four, which basically just exists to avoid going head to head against the Final Four. They wouldn't be doing anything terribly different from most other sports.

But many folks – at least me -- believe that the current system is better than the old system, so perceive going back to the old system as a step backward. And going to home ice is a step backwards from that. And once again, how are you going to award the byes? How are you going to determine who’s #1 and #2?

...I didn't say anything about the pairwise. My point is that the tournament should be exclusive and thorough enough so that the team that wins it all can make a legitimate claim at being the best in the land. Under the current system, if a team with a year like MSU happens to go on a 4 game winning streak against some good competition, that's barely enough to give them a legitimate claim at being in the top 10, let alone #1 overall.

You didn’t say anything about the pairwise, but you also didn’t say anything about how you were going to select your 12 teams or your six east and six west. Regular season winners? Tournament winner (if so, then for the tournaments that let anyone in, then what incentive is there for finishing first or last)? OK, so you have the tournament winner and maybe the regular season winner, which may be the same team. How are you going to pick the other teams?

 

[skiumah2]

Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

You're joking, right? First the discussion centers around people not having to fly to get to their teams's regional. Now you're saying that it's too far away if you can't take PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION to the game?????? I imagine people in just about every "non major metropolitan area" are getting a good chuckle out of that one. Do you think fans in upstate New York can take the subway to Albany? Or the fans in Ann Arbor can take the monorail to Detroit??? And as for the 8:00 p.m. game in Worcester - give me a break. So what? It's 35 miles to Boston. People in Maine or out West drive HOURS routinely to get places.

This type of nonsense just shows exactly how provincial Bostonians are (what other city calls themselves "The Hub" - as if the world revolves around them?). Get over yourself. Just stick to going to the Beanpot if you want to take "The T" to the game. Jeez... Now I know why no BU and BC fans are at these games, even though they're two of the most storied programs in college hockey (and I don't even know who you are a fan of, but you seem to be speaking for Boston people). Embarrassing...

This!

St. Cloud State is the closest Division I team to Minnesota, which is 65 miles away. MSU-Mankato is about 80 miles away, UMD is about 150 miles away and Bemidji State is about 215 miles away. The next 2 closest are North Dakota and Wisconsin, which get you drives of 5+ hours. So our closest travel location is 65 miles and really only one other place that could be considered a close drive. I consider myself lucky to be this close for Gopher road trips and kdilks is saying Worcester can't be considered close to Boston, which is about 40 miles away? Seriously? Jeez, I hope they don't have any more regionals in Providence. That's 10 whole miles further. You could shoot a cannon off in Dunkin' Donuts Center without hitting a single Eagle, Terrier, Husky or Crimson fan if they had the regional there. No offense kdilks but really? 40 miles is like heading up to Forest Lake to Runnin' Aces. That's not even a day trip for us Westerners.

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

The regionals are always going to be hurt when there's a lack of a big local draw, or when the nearest large fanbase has to travel more than a few hours to get there. Short notice doesn't help, either. Having one regional in Minnesota and one in Wisconsin in the same year probably doesn't help attendance, either- they're too close together.

But really, if the NCAA wanted more butts in seats, they'd lower the price and try to find ways to promote it more. Outside of the college hockey community, word of mouth seems to be the only way you'd hear about these things. You never hear or see any advertising for the events, and I live in one of this year's host cities. From a competitive aspect, the tourney is fine the way it is: the seeds are determined fairly, and preference is given to higher seeds when it comes to playing close to home. What more would we want?

 

[moose97]

Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

You're joking, right? First the discussion centers around people not having to fly to get to their teams's regional. Now you're saying that it's too far away if you can't take PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION to the game?????? I imagine people in just about every "non major metropolitan area" are getting a good chuckle out of that one. Do you think fans in upstate New York can take the subway to Albany? Or the fans in Ann Arbor can take the monorail to Detroit??? And as for the 8:00 p.m. game in Worcester - give me a break. So what? It's 35 miles to Boston. People in Maine or out West drive HOURS routinely to get places.

This type of nonsense just shows exactly how provincial Bostonians are (what other city calls themselves "The Hub" - as if the world revolves around them?). Get over yourself. Just stick to going to the Beanpot if you want to take "The T" to the game. Jeez... Now I know why no BU and BC fans are at these games, even though they're two of the most storied programs in college hockey (and I don't even know who you are a fan of, but you seem to be speaking for Boston people). Embarrassing...

This!

St. Cloud State is the closest Division I team to Minnesota, which is 65 miles away. MSU-Mankato is about 80 miles away, UMD is about 150 miles away and Bemidji State is about 215 miles away. The next 2 closest are North Dakota and Wisconsin, which get you drives of 5+ hours. So our closest travel location is 65 miles and really only one other place that could be considered a close drive. I consider myself lucky to be this close for Gopher road trips and kdilks is saying Worcester can't be considered close to Boston, which is about 40 miles away? Seriously? Jeez, I hope they don't have any more regionals in Providence. That's 10 whole miles further. You could shoot a cannon off in Dunkin' Donuts Center without hitting a single Eagle, Terrier, Husky or Crimson fan if they had the regional there. No offense kdilks but really? 40 miles is like heading up to Forest Lake to Runnin' Aces. That's not even a day trip for us Westerners.

These rants remind me of when BSU was at the ragional in Amherst, MA (~90 miles from Boston) back in '05. We checked into the hotel and being from the middle of the country, asked where a good seafood restaurant would be. The guy at the counter looked at us as if we were insane, and said, "we're not near the ocean - why would we have a seafood restaurant?" Our group was dumbfounded as 90 miles is a little closer than the 1,600 miles from Bemidji to Boston. And somehow there's restaurants that sell seafood (and more than walleye).

Our group also briefly considered driving to Worcester after the late game Sat, since they were hosting that year too and had their championship that night. All the locals told us that they thought we were crazy to consider that drive (48 miles each way) without making a hotel reservation!

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

It's official: Massachusetts is a strange place where space time is warped.

 

[HockeyMan2000]

Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

And as for the 8:00 p.m. game in Worcester - give me a break. So what? It's 35 miles to Boston. People in Maine or out West drive HOURS routinely to get places.
This type of nonsense just shows exactly how provincial Bostonians are (what other city calls themselves "The Hub" - as if the world revolves around them?). Get over yourself. Just stick to going to the Beanpot if you want to take "The T" to the game. Jeez... Now I know why no BU and BC fans are at these games, even though they're two of the most storied programs in college hockey (and I don't even know who you are a fan of, but you seem to be speaking for Boston people). Embarrassing...

Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, Sunday night at 8pm in Worcester is not a viable draw for a lot of people. Attendance would have been higher, as Jerry York suggested, if the game was played in the afternoon hours -- and there was no good reason why it couldn't have been. People go to work, kids go to school, the next day -- the fact it's an hour or more away for the "main fanbase", the potential of the game ending very late, makes it wholly unappealing. And if you think it's just BU and BC fans, why didn't UNH fans show up for their 8pm regional final against Notre Dame -- with that game IN New Hampshire? Attendance was under 6000 for a basic "home game" there.

The concept is fundamentally flawed. The ****ing match over which fanbase is more dedicated to drive hours away on a "work" or "school night" for a game on TV is a waste of time when most people knew a Sunday night, late 8pm start in Worcester -- or Manchester -- wasn't going to appeal to many. For me, I don't want to drive out of Worcester at 12:30am (say the game goes into OT) and get home at 2am when I have to get up for work at 7. Had the game been played at Noon, 1pm, 2pm, 3pm -- different story. Some folks have more priorities than hockey , particularly families, and the NCAA ought to care about who shows up (or doesn't) when they schedule games like the Northeast regional finals for "prime time" on a Sunday night.

 

[claver2010]

Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, Sunday night at 8pm in Worcester is not a viable draw for a lot of people. Attendance would have been higher, as Jerry York suggested, if the game was played in the afternoon hours -- and there was no good reason why it couldn't have been. People go to work, kids go to school, the next day -- the fact it's an hour or more away for the "main fanbase", the potential of the game ending very late, makes it wholly unappealing. And if you think it's just BU and BC fans, why didn't UNH fans show up for their 8pm regional final against Notre Dame -- with that game IN New Hampshire? Attendance was under 6000 for a basic "home game" there.

The concept is fundamentally flawed. The ****ing match over which fanbase is more dedicated to drive hours away on a "work" or "school night" for a game on TV is a waste of time when most people knew a Sunday night, late 8pm start in Worcester -- or Manchester -- wasn't going to appeal to many. For me, I don't want to drive out of Worcester at 12:30am (say the game goes into OT) and get home at 2am when I have to get up for work at 7. Had the game been played at Noon, 1pm, 2pm, 3pm -- different story. Some folks have more priorities than hockey , particularly families, and the NCAA ought to care about who shows up (or doesn't) when they schedule games like the Northeast regional finals for "prime time" on a Sunday night.

I think the fact that the Western regional was played at 5:00 eastern time and the Eastern at 8:00 on a work night is all you need to know.

The game was over in the span of a normal of time, I sped back to Boston and I still got less than 6 hours sleep.

I can only imagine for a family of 4. First look at the price, for a family of 4 it's $180 on Sunday night for tickets alone combined with the fact that you wouldn't get back to Boston till midnight with kids having school in the morning? You wonder why attendance is a joke.

 

[CLS]

Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

These rants remind me of when BSU was at the ragional in Amherst, MA (~90 miles from Boston) back in '05. We checked into the hotel and being from the middle of the country, asked where a good seafood restaurant would be. The guy at the counter looked at us as if we were insane, and said, "we're not near the ocean - why would we have a seafood restaurant?" Our group was dumbfounded as 90 miles is a little closer than the 1,600 miles from Bemidji to Boston. And somehow there's restaurants that sell seafood (and more than walleye)....

Wow. That person was poorly informed. Amherst, and nearby Northampton, have a lot of great restaurants, seafood and otherwise. Amherst itself is home to two colleges, UMass (which provides big numbers or students and parents) and Amherst College (which provides wealthy students and families) and the result is a lot of nice places to eat, in pretty much any price range.