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More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is...

Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

I am not quite sure how to choose the right words for this. I am not intending an insult to Boston area fans at all. Rather, I am finding a lot of irony in the last page of this thread:

We seem to be discussing the problem of not enough attendance at regionals. There have been many ideas about how to fix that - campus sites, etc. I keep wondering if the problem is easy to describe :

a) The really strong fan base is small in numbers in the first place
b) The economy is down, so people don't have the money to travel, especially when the rabid fans likely put out big bucks the week before for the conference tournaments

Now, again, this is not a flame toward the Boston people. I don't know any of them. But, someone a few posts up wrote something along the line of "Regardless of how late the BC fans should be willing to be out on a Sunday night, reality is that there won't be many who will. I got home as fast as possible from Worcester, and only got 6 hours of sleep." Someone else wrote that the West Region should have been evening, and the east afternoon.

All of which sounds great. But, then, I looked in the mirror. We are all screaming that it's not good this way, etc. But, look, let's reverse the games last Sunday. Good for BC people now. But, now the NoDak fans get away from the X at about 10 (earliest) their time (I am assuming a 7 PM local start time). It's 240 miles to Fargo, and an hour up the road from there to Grand Forks. So, no one there is getting home before 1:30 either. Now, I am not comparing the fans. I am simply saying that whatever happens, it puts real pressure on people's real lives to expect rabidly full arenas for these games.

So, I am thinking more and more that we have the best we can get, and we need to patient... Maybe the economy picks up, and with it, more rabid fans...
 
Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

I am not quite sure how to choose the right words for this. I am not intending an insult to Boston area fans at all. Rather, I am finding a lot of irony in the last page of this thread:

We seem to be discussing the problem of not enough attendance at regionals. There have been many ideas about how to fix that - campus sites, etc. I keep wondering if the problem is easy to describe :

a) The really strong fan base is small in numbers in the first place
b) The economy is down, so people don't have the money to travel, especially when the rabid fans likely put out big bucks the week before for the conference tournaments

Now, again, this is not a flame toward the Boston people. I don't know any of them. But, someone a few posts up wrote something along the line of "Regardless of how late the BC fans should be willing to be out on a Sunday night, reality is that there won't be many who will. I got home as fast as possible from Worcester, and only got 6 hours of sleep." Someone else wrote that the West Region should have been evening, and the east afternoon.

All of which sounds great. But, then, I looked in the mirror. We are all screaming that it's not good this way, etc. But, look, let's reverse the games last Sunday. Good for BC people now. But, now the NoDak fans get away from the X at about 10 (earliest) their time (I am assuming a 7 PM local start time). It's 240 miles to Fargo, and an hour up the road from there to Grand Forks. So, no one there is getting home before 1:30 either. Now, I am not comparing the fans. I am simply saying that whatever happens, it puts real pressure on people's real lives to expect rabidly full arenas for these games.

So, I am thinking more and more that we have the best we can get, and we need to patient... Maybe the economy picks up, and with it, more rabid fans...
Doesn’t come across like a flame at all. I just assumed that the North Dakota fans that were at the Xcel center were staying in hotels, so the lateness wouldn’t be as big a deal. Worcester is a "tweener" distance from Boston; far enough that travel time is a concern, close enough that it’s not worth an overnight or taking a vacation day Monday.

On things picking up when the economy picks up, maybe, maybe not. The attendance problems existed pre-2008; in fact attendance has been a problem since the tournament went to four regionals.

But I agree with your statement that what we have is the best we’re gonna get for a while. To me competitive fairness and tournament design is the most important, and that’s probably why I’m a defender of the status quo. Neutral location, 2^n number of teams so that there are no byes are good things to have in a tournament, and if I have to sacrifice “atmosphere” to get those things, I’d do it. It appears that the NCAA sees it that way also. What’s important to us will differ from person to person. It’s obvious that the atmosphere that comes with big crowds is very important to some people, and to others an affordable price matters a lot.
 
Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is


I noticed your quote on the blog about Ferris and long bus rides. Six of their nine possible bus trips were under 4 1/2 hours, with four clocking in under 3 hours. Trips to NMU, Miami and OSU all were in the 6-7 hour range. The Green Bay trip was their longest of the year. Michigan's trip to Green Bay was a grand total of 8 miles longer. But they fly anywhere that's over a 4 hours away.
 
Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

Worcester is a "tweener" distance from Boston; far enough that travel time is a concern..

Sorry, I do NOT agree. I commute 46 miles each way to work every day. Boston to Worcester is NOTHING (except for you city people who think anything outside of 128 is in Utah). It's ridiculous...I was speaking with a recruiter (when I was looking for work a few years back) and I told him that ideally I would like to work around the 495 belt. He said, "What's 495?" Many people in Boston have NO CLUE that anything else exists. I live in Fitchburg, and MANY times people have said to me, "Oh, isn't that in Western Mass. near Pittsfield?" I had Red Sox season tickets for six years and drove in sometimes three or four times a week. In case you don't realize it, MOST people in this country have to drive to get anyplace.

We're talking about ONCE a YEAR to go to an NCAA regional for crying out loud. If you're going to complain about that, then stay home if you don't want to go. Or would you rather be 240 miles away like the North Dakota fans? If Worcester is a "tweener" distance, what do you consider doable? Three miles? Jeez...
 
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Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

Wow. That person was poorly informed. Amherst, and nearby Northampton, have a lot of great restaurants, seafood and otherwise. Amherst itself is home to two colleges, UMass (which provides big numbers or students and parents) and Amherst College (which provides wealthy students and families) and the result is a lot of nice places to eat, in pretty much any price range.

You've got that right! But then again, that's the mentality of Bostonians (the ones that live IN the city). There is NOTHING outside of 10 miles from Boston. I can't tell you how many people I've spoken to that live in Boston that have never been OUTSIDE of Massachusetts or even to Central or Western Mass. Their attitude is, "Why should we? Everything we need is here and what do we care about anyone else anyway?" And then they wonder why when they DO travel someplace, everyone hates them...
 
Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

Agreed. I was amazed at that figure (9386) when I looked at the box scores. Is that butts in seats, or tickets sold?

I thought about driving up from Detroit, and assumed I'd pay a lot for tickets on the street. Instead, here in MI, I couldn't even see the NoDak game on TV, and only saw Minn thanks to NESN not being blacked out here.

Might help to make the regionals truly regional vs sending teams helter skelter across the US with far less notice than is needed for an affordable airline ticket.

I actually didn't have much trouble with TV this time. Even on Saturday night, I went a bar (one of only a couple in town) in BFE Crested Butte, Colorado - the town literally at the end of the road - and asked for college hockey. Done. Got to watch both the Minn-UND and BC-UMD games.
 
Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

I actually didn't have much trouble with TV this time. Even on Saturday night, I went a bar (one of only a couple in town) in BFE Crested Butte, Colorado - the town literally at the end of the road - and asked for college hockey. Done. Got to watch both the Minn-UND and BC-UMD games.

You stayed at the bar for a day and half? I believe that's a sign that you have a serious alcohol problem, sir.
 
Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

You're joking, right? First the discussion centers around people not having to fly to get to their teams's regional. Now you're saying that it's too far away if you can't take PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION to the game?????? I imagine people in just about every "non major metropolitan area" are getting a good chuckle out of that one. Do you think fans in upstate New York can take the subway to Albany? Or the fans in Ann Arbor can take the monorail to Detroit??? And as for the 8:00 p.m. game in Worcester - give me a break. So what? It's 35 miles to Boston. People in Maine or out West drive HOURS routinely to get places.

This type of nonsense just shows exactly how provincial Bostonians are (what other city calls themselves "The Hub" - as if the world revolves around them?). Get over yourself. Just stick to going to the Beanpot if you want to take "The T" to the game. Jeez... Now I know why no BU and BC fans are at these games, even though they're two of the most storied programs in college hockey (and I don't even know who you are a fan of, but you seem to be speaking for Boston people). Embarrassing...

You're making comparisons to places that have poor enough public transportation so that having a car is necessity. It most definitely is not a necessity in places like Boston or Minneapolis/St Paul.

If there isn’t any incentive now, then why do teams try to finish in first place now? Do you see any evidence that teams bag the season and don’t care whether they finish 1st or 14th? I see inconsistency, as you’d expect, but I don’t see teams that lack incentive to finish first or fourteenth.


But many folks – at least me -- believe that the current system is better than the old system, so perceive going back to the old system as a step backward. And going to home ice is a step backwards from that. And once again, how are you going to award the byes? How are you going to determine who’s #1 and #2?

You didn’t say anything about the pairwise, but you also didn’t say anything about how you were going to select your 12 teams or your six east and six west. Regular season winners? Tournament winner (if so, then for the tournaments that let anyone in, then what incentive is there for finishing first or last)? OK, so you have the tournament winner and maybe the regular season winner, which may be the same team. How are you going to pick the other teams?

It's not that teams are sandbagging, but you miss out on a lot of potential excitement when games at the end of the season have little to no bearing on your placement in the final tournament.

It's a pretty steep drop from "many" to "just me". Between single elimination being a crapshoot, regionals that are nowhere near anybody, unfair advantage given to host schools (and disadvantage to schools that draw them), the random nature of other teams getting a "home ice" advantage by being shifted for attendance, and making these kids play some of the most important games of their career in half-empty buildings, what isn't broken with the current system?

Pick them however you want. Stick the pairwise. Give each conference two bids, one for regular season champ, one for tourney champ, and have a tiebreaker for the second bid if one team wins both. Go with straight RPI rankings. I don't care. Deciding the "best" method of ranking teams is an entirely different discussion that's not especially relevant.


And they also probably could have fit all the fans they brought on the same bus. There's a wide gap between the NCAA rule saying you're close enough to bus, and being close enough to bring a sizable number of fans.
 
Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

You're making comparisons to places that have poor enough public transportation so that having a car is necessity. It most definitely is not a necessity in places like Boston or Minneapolis/St Paul.
Unless you happen to live on the smallish light rail line, you probably need a car in this metro area. The bus service isn't all that great, and I certainly wouldn't want to rely on it in the cold weather months (if we have those anymore).
 
Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

Bus service is actually pretty great if you live in Minneapolis or St Paul. I know a fair amount of grad students and even some professors at the U that don't own cars. I really only need my car to get to my own hockey games and visit my brother out in the 'burbs.
 
Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

Bus service is actually pretty great if you live in Minneapolis or St Paul. I know a fair amount of grad students and even some professors at the U that don't own cars. I really only need my car to get to my own hockey games and visit my brother out in the 'burbs.

kdilks - I probably shouldn't even comment, because I don't have the income or the time to get away to the games. But, I live here in the SE Metro. I don't know very many people who get by without a car. I am glad it can work for some people. I wonder how many Gopher/whoever else fans here in the Mpls/St Paul metro can actually do that. Like I say, I can think of one fellow know who lives in a downtown apt, and only needs the skyway. But, i think they are few...

Interesting that you are among them.
 
Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

Bus service is actually pretty great if you live in Minneapolis or St Paul. I know a fair amount of grad students and even some professors at the U that don't own cars. I really only need my car to get to my own hockey games and visit my brother out in the 'burbs.
My point stands. 2/3-3/4 of the people in the metro area don't live in the core cities.
 
Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

The problem with Worcester, especially the Sunday at 8 start time, for Boston fans extends to those without cars. Which includes just about every student at any of the Beanpot schools and many alumni like myself who live and work in the city and don't have a car. The commuter rail would not have been an option since the only train back to Boston would leave at 12:50 AM and not get back to the city until after 2 AM, and the T would be shut down. Greyhound isn't even an option as the last bus leaves at 10:25. I would have found a way there, but unless the school provided a bus for fans, there's literally no way out there from Boston for fans without a car. Of course, for those that do have cars, it's absolutely by no means "too far", it's a short drive, especially on a weekend, so if you had a car, the distance issue is absolutely a non-factor. The only reason I could think of why a fan with a car couldn't make the Worcester games would be if they had kids or get up early for work and didn't want to get home that late on a Sunday night with them. Again, for a diehard, they'd find a way around it, but for a more casual fan, the start time would be a deterrent.
 
Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

My point stands. 2/3-3/4 of the people in the metro area don't live in the core cities.

My point was just that there's a non-trivial amount of people who solely rely on public transportation to get them everywhere they need to go (for example, a fair amount of the 50000 people that are actually students at the University of Minnesota). I never said there would be any problem with attendance if Minnesota hosted a regional at some hypothetical place an hour outside the cities, for reasons that make it clear why such an issue is possible in Boston. The Boston schools don't have the state-wide appeal in Massachusetts that the University of Minnesota has in Minnesota, so instead of drawing BU/BC fans from all over, they're predominantly drawing from the core area around the city. And since the Boston area is more centralized and better connected than MSP, that means a majority of the fan base is in the area where people can feasibly get by without a car.
 
Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

To expound on that, let's say you wanted to bring two kids to the game with you...the prices are just way too high. diehard or not. I went with two other people, but we all paid our own way. I didn't go to the HE championships at the Garden because I knew I would be shelling out $96 for Worcester. So if you're going with your wife and two kids...$400 for the weekend? It's absurd.
 
Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

And since the Boston area is more centralized and better connected than MSP, that means a majority of the fan base is in the area where people can feasibly get by without a car.

In most cases, living in Boston is difficult to get by WITH a car, not to mention ridiculously more expensive. Under 2% of students at BU have a car on campus.
 
Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

My point stands. 2/3-3/4 of the people in the metro area don't live in the core cities.

Couple that with the fact that it can be complicated getting public transportation to St Paul (where the X is) from areas around Minneapolis (where more of the people are).
 
Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

Couple that with the fact that it can be complicated getting public transportation to St Paul (where the X is) from areas around Minneapolis (where more of the people are).

Take practically any bus to 6th St in downtown Minneapolis, transfer to the 94, drops you off 5 blocks from the X. If you live near University, Como, or Lake St, it might be faster to go straight to downtown St Paul on the 16, 3 , or 21 (respectively). It's not rocket science.
 
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