MLB 2013 - This Bud's for you!

[jmh]

Re: MLB 2013 - This Bud's for you!

A pitcher's job is to win the game. You get a guy who goes nine innings but wins a 6-5 game, and then does it 300 times, those are the guys who should be in the hall of fame.

No, no, no. A team's job is to win the game. A pitcher's job is to prevent the opposing team from scoring runs so that his team can win the game. There is an entire 50% of the game that the pitcher is entirely (almost entirely in the National League) uninvolved with. There is no such thing as a pitcher who routinely pitches nine innings and wins 6-5 to the point that he wins 300 games because pitchers who routinely give up 5 runs are not very good at pitching and do not get the opportunity to win 300 games; if they win those games it's because they're lucky that their team scored enough runs to overcome a poor pitching performance, not because they pitched well.

Yes, in 1972 the Phillies were 59-97 and Steve Carlton was 27-10. Coincidentally, he stayed healthy enough to make 41 starts, struck out by far the most batters in the league and walked few by comparison, and led the league in ERA. It's not like he had a magical ability to win games; he had one of the best single seasons a modern-era pitcher has ever had, and it's a nice bit of trivia that he won 27 games for a team that was far under .500, but he did that because he allowed so few runs that the Phillies' miserable offense was able to score more, not in isolation from the run prevention.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: MLB 2013 - This Bud's for you!

No, no, no. A team's job is to win the game. A pitcher's job is to prevent the opposing team from scoring runs so that his team can win the game. There is an entire 50% of the game that the pitcher is entirely (almost entirely in the National League) uninvolved with. There is no such thing as a pitcher who routinely pitches nine innings and wins 6-5 to the point that he wins 300 games because pitchers who routinely give up 5 runs are not very good at pitching and do not get the opportunity to win 300 games; if they win those games it's because they're lucky that their team scored enough runs to overcome a poor pitching performance, not because they pitched well.

Yes, in 1972 the Phillies were 59-97 and Steve Carlton was 27-10. Coincidentally, he stayed healthy enough to make 41 starts, struck out by far the most batters in the league and walked few by comparison, and led the league in ERA. It's not like he had a magical ability to win games; he had one of the best single seasons a modern-era pitcher has ever had, and it's a nice bit of trivia that he won 27 games for a team that was far under .500, but he did that because he allowed so few runs that the Phillies' miserable offense was able to score more, not in isolation from the run prevention.

I don't necessarily disagree with any of this. In fact, I agree with almost all of it.

Let's recall.

Hammer posted that to his way of thinking a pitcher who posted 3000+ K's in a career should be more of a lock for the HOF than a hitter who posted 3000+ hits. That was the point I disagreed with. I said it was far more important when considering a pitcher's merit to look at wins and losses, ERA, innings pitched, games pitched, how their numbers stacked up against their peers, were they considered the best at their position in any given years, were they considered among the best at their position during their career, etc...

Then you and FS23 locked in on the "wins and losses" part of my post, and off we went.

 

[MinnesotaNorthStar]

Re: MLB 2013 - This Bud's for you!

No, no, no. A team's job is to win the game. A pitcher's job is to prevent the opposing team from scoring runs so that his team can win the game. There is an entire 50% of the game that the pitcher is entirely (almost entirely in the National League) uninvolved with. There is no such thing as a pitcher who routinely pitches nine innings and wins 6-5 to the point that he wins 300 games because pitchers who routinely give up 5 runs are not very good at pitching and do not get the opportunity to win 300 games; if they win those games it's because they're lucky that their team scored enough runs to overcome a poor pitching performance, not because they pitched well.

Yes, in 1972 the Phillies were 59-97 and Steve Carlton was 27-10. Coincidentally, he stayed healthy enough to make 41 starts, struck out by far the most batters in the league and walked few by comparison, and led the league in ERA. It's not like he had a magical ability to win games; he had one of the best single seasons a modern-era pitcher has ever had, and it's a nice bit of trivia that he won 27 games for a team that was far under .500, but he did that because he allowed so few runs that the Phillies' miserable offense was able to score more, not in isolation from the run prevention.

You forgot *dropsmic*

I think the reason Hammer is bringing up strikeouts because while it is "just" type of out...it's a type of out that the pitcher has a lot of control over, and I would bet the most preferred type of out among major league teams. Fly balls can be dropped, grounders bobbled, and throws to first wild. If the worst case scenario happens and a catcher drops strike 3 with first base open, it's an easy tag or a toss to first with a much less likely chance of going wild.

And let's be honest...how many pitchers are going to last nine innings when giving up 5 runs?

 

[SJHovey]

Re: MLB 2013 - This Bud's for you!

You forgot *dropsmic*

I think the reason Hammer is bringing up strikeouts because while it is "just" type of out...it's a type of out that the pitcher has a lot of control over, and I would bet the most preferred type of out among major league teams. Fly balls can be dropped, grounders bobbled, and throws to first wild. If the worst case scenario happens and a catcher drops strike 3 with first base open, it's an easy tag or a toss to first with a much less likely chance of going wild.

And let's be honest...how many pitchers are going to last nine innings when giving up 5 runs?

With respect to the nine innings comment, how many pitchers go nine innings period? We've gotten to the point that even when a pitcher has given up only 1 or 2 runs, he will likely be replaced late in the ballgame by a relief specialist.

Don't get me wrong. The ability to strike out a batter is an advantage to a pitcher. But strikeouts also use up a lot of pitches. If you asked a major league manager whether he'd rather his pitcher strike out the side with 9 pitches, or get out of the inning on 4 pitches with 3 ground balls, I don't know that the strikeout performance would be the "preferred" method of getting out of the inning.

Again, it's just a way of getting a batter out. It can be significant in certain situations, like second and third with less than two outs. But how many of a 3000 K pitcher's strikeouts just came against the first batter of an inning where the out recorded was no different than a ground ball out? I just don't think you can credibly argue that achieving 3000 K's by a pitcher is equivalent or greater than a player getting 3000 hits.

 

[jmh]

Re: MLB 2013 - This Bud's for you!

Then you and FS23 locked in on the "wins and losses" part of my post, and off we went.

Sorry, I suppose I did go off on a bit of a tangent there by focusing on one aspect of your post.

 

[jmh]

Re: MLB 2013 - This Bud's for you!

If you asked a major league manager whether he'd rather his pitcher strike out the side with 9 pitches, or get out of the inning on 4 pitches with 3 ground balls, I don't know that the strikeout performance would be the "preferred" method of getting out of the inning.

But this is a false choice. Even if you posit that the pitcher could pitch to contact with a guarantee of three ground balls rather than fly balls or line drives, there's no guarantee that those ground balls get turned into outs. Yes, if you assume the ground balls are outs, sure that'd be better, but the pitcher who is capable of getting the strikeouts is more likely to be able to repeat that 1-2-3 inning (or induce weak contact) in the future.

 

[joecct]

Re: MLB 2013 - This Bud's for you!

But this is a false choice. Even if you posit that the pitcher could pitch to contact with a guarantee of three ground balls rather than fly balls or line drives, there's no guarantee that those ground balls get turned into outs. Yes, if you assume the ground balls are outs, sure that'd be better, but the pitcher who is capable of getting the strikeouts is more likely to be able to repeat that 1-2-3 inning (or induce weak contact) in the future.

Then we get into the "pitch count" argument? Nowadays 100 pitches seems to be the ceiling on 99% of pitchers. Back in the day of day World Series, you pitched until you stopped being effective, not because the manual said "8th inning setup man; 9th inning closer".

 

[Dude Love]

Re: MLB 2013 - This Bud's for you!

Then we get into the "pitch count" argument? Nowadays 100 pitches seems to be the ceiling on 99% of pitchers. Back in the day of day World Series, you pitched until you stopped being effective, not because the manual said "8th inning setup man; 9th inning closer".

Gardenhire wrote the manual??

 

[MinnesotaNorthStar]

Re: MLB 2013 - This Bud's for you!

Gardenhire wrote the manual??

No, he just uses it...Gardy is far from the only manager that thinks like this.

 

[mookie1995]

The Cubs new (first) mascot is T.C. Bear as a, well cub.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/breaking/chi-chicago-cubs-mascot-clark-20140113,0,7590774.story

why do people care so much. lotta hate. big deal.

 

[RaceBoarder]

Re: MLB 2013 - This Bud's for you!

Kershaw signs with the Dodgers for 7 years/$215 million...

He's good... Also, the Dodgers are gonna spend till they win something

 

[walrus]

Arods lawyer talked a godlike figure in Boston doing roids, Then denies he was talking about Ortiz, tf

 

[Priceless]

Re: MLB 2013 - This Bud's for you!

Arods lawyer talked a godlike figure in Boston doing roids, Then denies he was talking about Ortiz, tf

A-Rod is going to sing like a canary and name pretty much anyone he can think of when he starts. Exactly how credible is anything this clown says at this point?

 

[Craig P.]

Re: MLB 2013 - This Bud's for you!

Arods lawyer talked a godlike figure in Boston doing roids, Then denies he was talking about Ortiz, tf

Pedro?

 

[walrus]

Re: MLB 2013 - This Bud's for you!

A-Rod is going to sing like a canary and name pretty much anyone he can think of when he starts. Exactly how credible is anything this clown says at this point?

He would seem to be desperate. Ortiz will get outed sooner or later by more than just the Mitchell report. Pedro, wouldn't surprise me either.

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: MLB 2013 - This Bud's for you!

A-Rod is going to sing like a canary and name pretty much anyone he can think of when he starts. Exactly how credible is anything this clown says at this point?

People said the same thing about Canseco's book when it came out......and that all seems to be pretty accurate now. With that said, ARod has more to lose, and is a significantly larger d-bag than Jose Canseco.

 

[jen]

Re: MLB 2013 - This Bud's for you!

<a href="http://www.jsonline.com/news/usandworld/national/mlb-approves-expanded-replay-starting-this-season59e8087b01464f398b0f3d26b6947ac3-240598771.html">Hello expanded replay</a>

Managers get one challenge. If they use it and they're right, they get another, but they can't challenge the neighborhood play.

 

[JF_Gophers]

Re: MLB 2013 - This Bud's for you!

<a href="http://www.jsonline.com/news/usandworld/national/mlb-approves-expanded-replay-starting-this-season59e8087b01464f398b0f3d26b6947ac3-240598771.html">Hello expanded replay</a>

I don't see much wrong with this expansion at first glance.

Key Items:

- Each manager will be allowed to challenge at least one call per game. If he's right, he gets another challenge. After the seventh inning, a crew chief can request a review on his own if the manager has used his challenges.

- The so-called "neighborhood play" at second base on double plays cannot be challenged.

- All reviews will be done by current MLB umpires at a replay center in MLB.com's New York office. (Thanks NHL!)

- To make baseball reviews uniform, cameras will transit 12 angles from each ballpark.

- The new rule allows ballparks to show fans the same replays on stadium video screens. But only plays under review can be shown on the screen in slow motion.

 

[Dude Love]

Re: MLB 2013 - This Bud's for you!

<a href="http://www.jsonline.com/news/usandworld/national/mlb-approves-expanded-replay-starting-this-season59e8087b01464f398b0f3d26b6947ac3-240598771.html">Hello expanded replay</a>

Managers get one challenge. If they use it and they're right, they get another, but they can't challenge the neighborhood play.

Awesome!

 

[jmh]

Re: MLB 2013 - This Bud's for you!

I'm not crazy about challenge-based systems in general, but I guess it's better than nothing. And did they say why they exempt the neighborhood play? There seem to be some obvious blown calls there.