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Making a Murderer updates

Re: Making a Murderer updates

I think there are two different questions here. The first is whether Zellner has uncovered either new evidence that warrants a new trial, or inappropriate conduct by the prosecution (typically, failure to produce possible exculpatory evidence) to warrant a new trial.

The second is whether Steven Avery is guilty or not.

With respect to the first question, I think Zellner has done an admirable job. The issue of "new evidence" is a bit tricky in my mind. I don't know that a lot of the forensic test results she's produced are "new" so much as they just weren't done by either the prosecution or defense in the original trial. Does that constitute ineffective assistance of counsel? Maybe, but I would guess that there are cases out there where courts have told convicted individuals that your failure to conduct an available test at the time of your original trial doesn't mean that we're just going to let you out because you want to do the test now and it's positive for you.

I think she is on firmer ground with respect to the prosecution not disclosing all the evidence ahead of time (don't hold your breath about any prosecutors going to jail for that), so I wouldn't be surprised if she gets a new trial on that basis alone.

On Avery's guilt or innocence, I'm still not so sure that she, Avery, and some of you are right.

We do know Halbach was on his property. We do know her key was found in his house. His blood is in her vehicle, as is hers. The vehicle is on his property. At least some of her bones were found on his property.

I understand there are theories about the conspiracy to frame Avery, primarily due to the lawsuit from the other imprisonment. But what's troubled me about those conspiracy theories is this. First, they involve a number of people, not just two, or possibly three.

Second, Zellner thinks there is evidence that the boyfriend was involved. She thinks there is evidence that Tadych and/or Bobby Dassey were involved. And, of course, she thinks the police were involved.

So is the theory that all or some of these parties somehow coordinated their conspiracy? Did they all independently happen to decide to frame Steven Avery for this crime? I could believe that a single person like Tadych, for example, committed the crime and independently tried to frame Avery without the involvement of all of these other parties. I don't see how a conspiracy of that many disparate and unrelated parties could, on the spur of the moment, carry out such a conspiracy. More importantly, I don't see evidence that one single party, like Tadych, like Hillegas, or like the police department, had access to all the moving parts to carry out the framing.

That's just what troubles me.
 
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Re: Making a Murderer updates

I think there are two different questions here. The first is whether Zellner has uncovered either new evidence that warrants a new trial, or inappropriate conduct by the prosecution (typically, failure to produce possible exculpatory evidence) to warrant a new trial.

The second is whether Steven Avery is guilty or not.

With respect to the first question, I think Zellner has done an admirable job. The issue of "new evidence" is a bit tricky in my mind. I don't know that a lot of the forensic test results she's produced are "new" so much as they just weren't done by either the prosecution or defense in the original trial. Does that constitute ineffective assistance of counsel? Maybe, but I would guess that there are cases out there where courts have told convicted individuals that your failure to conduct an available test at the time of your original trial doesn't mean that we're just going to let you out because you want to do the test now and it's positive for you.

I think she is on firmer ground with respect to the prosecution not disclosing all the evidence ahead of time (don't hold your breath about any prosecutors going to jail for that), so I wouldn't be surprised if she gets a new trial on that basis alone.

On Avery's guilt or innocence, I'm still not so sure that she, Avery, and some of you are right.

We do know Halbach was on his property. We do know her key was found in his house. His blood is in her vehicle, as is hers. The vehicle is on his property. At least some of her bones were found on his property.

I understand there are theories about the conspiracy to frame Avery, primarily due to the lawsuit from the other imprisonment. But what's troubled me about those conspiracy theories is this. First, they involve a number of people, not just two, or possibly three.

Second, Zellner thinks there is evidence that the boyfriend was involved. She thinks there is evidence that Tadych and/or Bobby Dassey were involved. And, of course, she thinks the police were involved.

So is the theory that all or some of these parties somehow coordinated their conspiracy? Did they all independently happened to decide to frame Steven Avery for this crime? I could believe that a single person like Tadych, for example, committed the crime and independently tried to frame Avery without the involvement of all of these other parties. I don't see how a conspiracy of that many disparate and unrelated parties could, on the spur of the moment, carry out such a conspiracy. More importantly, I don't see evidence that one single party, like Tadych, like Hillegas, or like the police department, had access to all the moving parts to carry out the framing.

That's just what troubles me.
To me I think its completely plausible that someone like Tadych or Hillegas did something and tried to cover it up knowing that Avery would be an obvious target...obviously this leans towards Tadych because of his knowledge of Avery. The policy side of it seems plausible that it was a tunnel vision to make sure hew as convicted by doing things they normally wouldn't do because they were convinced that Avery was guilty both times and wanted to make sure he didn't get out this time. I honestly don't think that isn't an extremely difficult possibility to accept.
 
Re: Making a Murderer updates

I agree with most of what hovey said. I don’t think anyone thinks Avery is a good guy. I don’t know if he’s guilty.

I think the evidence is clear that a lot of tampering went on.
 
Re: Making a Murderer updates

I agree with most of what hovey said. I don’t think anyone thinks Avery is a good guy. I don’t know if he’s guilty.

I think the evidence is clear that a lot of tampering went on.
Avery is likely not a good guy. I honestly think the more important piece to everything is that Brendan Dassey got screwed...
 
To me I think its completely plausible that someone like Tadych or Hillegas did something and tried to cover it up knowing that Avery would be an obvious target...obviously this leans towards Tadych because of his knowledge of Avery. The policy side of it seems plausible that it was a tunnel vision to make sure hew as convicted by doing things they normally wouldn't do because they were convinced that Avery was guilty both times and wanted to make sure he didn't get out this time. I honestly don't think that isn't an extremely difficult possibility to accept.

Agreed. We even had police AFTER dna exonerated Steven going on record in depositions saying they still thought he did it. Meaning 1985.

The clear fact is we don’t KNOW what happened. Next is evidence tampering and/or withholding.

There is a very odd relationship between the sheriffs and both Hillegas and Bobby Dassey. That may come out soon. Hillegas called one specific sheriff some 21 times the night of the murder. Bobby was treated with kid gloves with the police lying about his pc AND ignoring the massive amounts of blood in his garage thinking it was all due to deer processing and not potentially his covering a crime scene. EDIT: also ignoring his crimes via watching or downloading child porn. Incredibly vile stuff and incredible dereliction of duty on police to ignore that.

Tadych’s alibi can be partially disproven with hospital video if they have cameras up. If he didn’t visit his mom etc.

I agree it’s disconcerting that 3 or more parties would cover for each other but the evidence is bizarre. Tadych got a new house somehow out of this deal. The facts uncovered by ttm are astounding. I’m fairly certain he’s been tipping off Zellner over the past year.

Also, evidently one officer told Zellner in confidence that Avery is innocent.
 
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Re: Making a Murderer updates

Agreed. We even had police AFTER dna exonerated Steven going on record in depositions saying they still thought he did it. Meaning 1985.

The clear fact is we don’t KNOW what happened. Next is evidence tampering and/or withholding.

There is a very odd relationship between the sheriffs and both Hillegas and Bobby Dassey. That may come out soon. Hillegas called one specific sheriff some 21 times the night of the murder. Bobby was treated with kid gloves with the police lying about his pc AND ignoring the massive amounts of blood in his garage thinking it was all due to deer processing and not potentially his covering a crime scene. EDIT: also ignoring his crimes via watching or downloading child porn. Incredibly vile stuff and incredible dereliction of duty on police to ignore that.

Tadych’s alibi can be partially disproven with hospital video if they have cameras up. If he didn’t visit his mom etc.

I agree it’s disconcerting that 3 or more parties would cover for each other but the evidence is bizarre. Tadych got a new house somehow out of this deal. The facts uncovered by ttm are astounding. I’m fairly certain he’s been tipping off Zellner over the past year.

Also, evidently one officer told Zellner in confidence that Avery is innocent.
I think the key in all of this is that Avery was railroaded...innocent is another question.
 
I think the key in all of this is that Avery was railroaded...innocent is another question.

True. Now we’ll see if the governor and AG will concede on that question or will they stonewall like Walker and Schimel and keep the rav4 and other items out of Zellner’s hands.
 
Re: Making a Murderer updates

Brendon got screwed. I think he is innocent (not just "not guilty").
Steve may or not be innocent, but there is a reasonable doubt that he's guilty. So, he's not guilty by definition of law.
 
Steve is a compete POS. Nothing shows beyond a reasonable doubt that he did this, though. That's it.

I don’t have much of an opinion on Avery as a person, out of curiosity why do you think he’s a pos? So much of the narrative has been controlled (until mam) by the people railroading him. Is it the cat incident? Or?

Not to diminish the cat situation. If he did throw a cat over the bonfire he should be duly charged with cruelty to animals.
 
Re: Making a Murderer updates

I don’t have much of an opinion on Avery as a person, out of curiosity why do you think he’s a pos? So much of the narrative has been controlled (until mam) by the people railroading him. Is it the cat incident? Or?

Not to diminish the cat situation. If he did throw a cat over the bonfire he should be duly charged with cruelty to animals.

For me, it's his demeanor, attitudes, just how he comes across.
 
Re: Making a Murderer updates

I would assume Avery is probably a loudmouthed d-bag who is probably a PITA to live with and yells and screams all the friggin time. I probably would not want to know him. I dont think he did this crime AT ALL. I dont know who did (though I have my suspicions) but the evidence is flimsy anyways before Zellner proved even more of it wrong and the circumstances behind finding the evidence by the cops is so shady it is facepalm worthy.

Here is the thing, in general I am a skeptic. So I question everything and then see if the argument made holds up. Usually serves me well. Evidence like the key definitely seems to be ****ing at first. Then you ask yourself...well why did it take so many searches to find it? Why was it all of a sudden just in plain sight when before it was not? And the ultimate question why would Avery keep the key when he knows the cops are investigating him. It isnt like it is hard to get rid of a key. Next time you go somewhere drop it in a sewer drain or a big trash bin in an alley. Throw it in the lake or river...a 7 year old could figure that out.

But that can be argued against by saying he is a moron. I can buy that cause he does seem like quite the moron. But that narrative dies when it comes to how they supposedly killed her in the garage. (according to Dassey's testimony) With the details that Dassey gave (all of which were used to convict Avery) there should have been evidence EVERYWHERE! I dont care how much you clean there is going to be massive amounts of blood you miss. Nothing. No evidence to show the awful rape. It isnt like he lived in a spotless house to begin with, his place was a mess. So you are telling me there is nothing of value anywhere? I guarantee you right now there is traceable blood all over my sink and I clean that all of the time and that is just from a little nick here and there. They supposedly bludgeoned and slaughtered a girl in the house of a slob and nothing. So these morons are somehow smart enough to clean up after themselves to the point you cant prove anything?

The two stories dont add up. Nor does it add up that the same people who are smart enough to clean a crime scene of blood that perfectly would then choose to keep the Rav 4 on the property and try and hide it with like 2 pieces of wood. Not to mention allow the search on your property when you know it is there.

None of this passes the smell test...none of it does. Even the ****ing evidence not shown in the Docs doesnt prove anything and certainly doesnt make me think he did it.
 
Re: Making a Murderer updates

I would assume Avery is probably a loudmouthed d-bag who is probably a PITA to live with and yells and screams all the friggin time. I probably would not want to know him. I dont think he did this crime AT ALL. I dont know who did (though I have my suspicions) but the evidence is flimsy anyways before Zellner proved even more of it wrong and the circumstances behind finding the evidence by the cops is so shady it is facepalm worthy.

Here is the thing, in general I am a skeptic. So I question everything and then see if the argument made holds up. Usually serves me well. Evidence like the key definitely seems to be ****ing at first. Then you ask yourself...well why did it take so many searches to find it? Why was it all of a sudden just in plain sight when before it was not? And the ultimate question why would Avery keep the key when he knows the cops are investigating him. It isnt like it is hard to get rid of a key. Next time you go somewhere drop it in a sewer drain or a big trash bin in an alley. Throw it in the lake or river...a 7 year old could figure that out.

But that can be argued against by saying he is a moron. I can buy that cause he does seem like quite the moron. But that narrative dies when it comes to how they supposedly killed her in the garage. (according to Dassey's testimony) With the details that Dassey gave (all of which were used to convict Avery) there should have been evidence EVERYWHERE! I dont care how much you clean there is going to be massive amounts of blood you miss. Nothing. No evidence to show the awful rape. It isnt like he lived in a spotless house to begin with, his place was a mess. So you are telling me there is nothing of value anywhere? I guarantee you right now there is traceable blood all over my sink and I clean that all of the time and that is just from a little nick here and there. They supposedly bludgeoned and slaughtered a girl in the house of a slob and nothing. So these morons are somehow smart enough to clean up after themselves to the point you cant prove anything?

The two stories dont add up. Nor does it add up that the same people who are smart enough to clean a crime scene of blood that perfectly would then choose to keep the Rav 4 on the property and try and hide it with like 2 pieces of wood. Not to mention allow the search on your property when you know it is there.

None of this passes the smell test...none of it does. Even the ****ing evidence not shown in the Docs doesnt prove anything and certainly doesnt make me think he did it.

I don't think there is any doubt that the "killing in the garage" narrative is garbage. There is simply no evidence of it. The prosecution should have simply taken the approach that we don't know exactly where he killed her, but the evidence of the key in his house, his blood in the Rav and her bones in his yard, coupled with him being the last person to see her alive, says he did it. I don't think you have to prove where she was killed on the property.

But that's the mistake the prosecution and cops frequently make. They have a case, with decent evidence, but they always want to make it a lock, so they start creating evidence and narratives to supplement the real stuff, and that's where they get in trouble.
 
Re: Making a Murderer updates

but the evidence of the key in his house
Right but how exactly do you explain this part? They tore the place apart numerous times and just find that key on the third try when the two shady detectives happen to be around?

Personally I think certain evidence is hard to explain away like the blood in the RAV, I kinda doubt it was just planted (and the whole conspiracy angle seems outrageous though I haven't watched MAM2). But the key to me is the biggest evidence of something weird going on from the law enforcement side of things.
 
Re: Making a Murderer updates

It just all goes back to "reasonable doubt" with the case. I think without the tampering stuff, he would have been convicted, per the law standard. However, any shadow of a doubt is magnified by all the allegations of misconduct by the PD.
 
Re: Making a Murderer updates

Right but how exactly do you explain this part? They tore the place apart numerous times and just find that key on the third try when the two shady detectives happen to be around?

Personally I think certain evidence is hard to explain away like the blood in the RAV, I kinda doubt it was just planted (and the whole conspiracy angle seems outrageous though I haven't watched MAM2). But the key to me is the biggest evidence of something weird going on from the law enforcement side of things.

I don't know how they missed it, or why. I can't even state with certainty that it wasn't planted. Those are all points the defense can, and did, argue.

What were the cops looking for when they first searched the house and missed it? My guess is that they were looking for things like blood, signs of violent struggle, guns or weapons, especially anything with blood on them, spent shell casings, things like that. Do they over look a plain looking key chain? Possibly. Keep in mind the cops weren't exactly searching the sitting room of the top suite at The Plaza hotel in NYC, where even a nose tissue on the desk looks out of place. Avery's house was a dump, well on it's way to being a hoarder house. Who knows what the cops missed there.

Second, if you're going to claim it's planted, especially by the police, explain that to me, as a juror. Yeah, you claim they had motive because of the lawsuit. Yeah, you claim they had access because they were in the house. But how and when did they get the friggin' key, and get Avery's blood on it before they planted it?
 
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