NorthMike
Well-known member
I completely agree, which makes the thought of Guite being handed the job so crazy.
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Maine Offseason 2020: We Stay Home But Swayman Leaves
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I completely agree, which makes the thought of Guite being handed the job so crazy.
umhockey91
Well-known member
Chuck....I am under no delusions of the reality of the program's current state.....some of it self induced by inept administrators that would not/could not make timely decisions on underperforming head coaches. I stand by my statements however.....
1. Money is tight and the program is down but.......the HC position will still pay $200K + and the time is right (ripe) for someone to come in, turn the program around and parlay that into a bigger and better position if they so choose. I don't think someone needs to be a miracle worker to win at Maine.
2. This program is still very visible......both in-state and on a national level due to its history and continued membership in Hockey East.
3. Fan support while down is still very engaged....Maine hockey is in their blood.
4. Maybe most importantly in terms of cold, hard facts.....hockey facilities ARE getting upgraded. Money is tight for coaching salaries.....but Alfond Foundation money IS real and hockey support facilities have been targeted for major upgrades.
1. Money is tight and the program is down but.......the HC position will still pay $200K + and the time is right (ripe) for someone to come in, turn the program around and parlay that into a bigger and better position if they so choose. I don't think someone needs to be a miracle worker to win at Maine.
2. This program is still very visible......both in-state and on a national level due to its history and continued membership in Hockey East.
3. Fan support while down is still very engaged....Maine hockey is in their blood.
4. Maybe most importantly in terms of cold, hard facts.....hockey facilities ARE getting upgraded. Money is tight for coaching salaries.....but Alfond Foundation money IS real and hockey support facilities have been targeted for major upgrades.
Chuck Murray
WIS & Effingwoods Hockey Almanac
Further on the fleeting nature of even extended success at a high level ... look at the NFL Patriots. They've enjoyed a great run at or near the top of about two straight decades. Before that - and this is not an exaggeration - they were one of the least successful franchises, first over the 10 years of the AFL (along with Denver ironically), and then for most of their first 30+ years in the NFL. Nothing on the field, threatened franchise relocations every few seasons, moving from stadium to stadium like nomads for their first dozen seasons, then playing in the cheapest dump in the NFL until Kraft built the current stadium.
Enter Brady/Belichick. Basically Walshy/Standbrook without skates, on steroids. An historically unenthusiastic fanbase is transfixed, and it's a great historic run ... until Brady leaves. And Belichick is 70, and Kraft is probably pushing 80, so you can see the good times are slowly ebbing, and there is no reason to think the Patriots of this current decade can reasonably expect to be any better that the Whitehead era Black Bears (if that). Was it a great 20 or so years? Yeah. Will it last any longer than it already has? With all of the 3 key guys either gone, or aging and eventually going away, highly unlikely.
New England/Boston has never been "football country" before, not even on the college level, unless you're going back about a century to Harvard, Yale and the flying wedge. Boston lost its previous NFL team (did you guys know the Redskins were originally a Boston team?). If the Patriots can't rebuild to reconnect with their Brady/Belichick glories in the next generation, their franchise can easily backslide to irrelevance once casual fans become disenchanted. Boston always used to be seen as a hockey and baseball city, the Bruins owned the town when I was a kid. Now they're a distant 4th out of 4 pro teams, and truth be told, they're probably closer to #5 Revs than to whomever is #3 now (Sox/Celts)? Bobby Orr's Bruins. Sad but true. Things do change, for the better and sometimes for the worst. The Pats could be back to #4 by 2040. Who knows?
I see UMaine/Downeast Maine/Orono more like a Green Bay NFL outpost, with deeper roots in the game. The Packers are seen where they are in their game and in the NFL because they are a modest little isolated outpost with deep roots in the game, and dating back to the early days of the NFL. They had lots of early success, and even after they hit hard times, it was still a diehard football place, and the Lombardi Era cemented that, probably forever. Walshy is your Lombardi, right down to their respective tragic "before their time" passings. There may never be another like him (them?) but they were magnetic and magical and mythical, and THAT is what you have going for you guys.
All the more reason to get Monty back. THAT is your ticket, and that's how UMaine gets back to glory. He lived it, he understands, and he would embrace it. I'm jealous that you guys have that; all UNH has out there is Mike Ayers, who's learned at the foot of Coach York at BC, but hasn't been around for any of their D-1 titles. You gotta go for Monty, and I think Monty would lunge at the chance to reconnect his legacy with Walsh and UMaine. You'll hate yourselves if you don't at least try very hard to make it happen with Monty.
JMHO.
Enter Brady/Belichick. Basically Walshy/Standbrook without skates, on steroids. An historically unenthusiastic fanbase is transfixed, and it's a great historic run ... until Brady leaves. And Belichick is 70, and Kraft is probably pushing 80, so you can see the good times are slowly ebbing, and there is no reason to think the Patriots of this current decade can reasonably expect to be any better that the Whitehead era Black Bears (if that). Was it a great 20 or so years? Yeah. Will it last any longer than it already has? With all of the 3 key guys either gone, or aging and eventually going away, highly unlikely.
New England/Boston has never been "football country" before, not even on the college level, unless you're going back about a century to Harvard, Yale and the flying wedge. Boston lost its previous NFL team (did you guys know the Redskins were originally a Boston team?). If the Patriots can't rebuild to reconnect with their Brady/Belichick glories in the next generation, their franchise can easily backslide to irrelevance once casual fans become disenchanted. Boston always used to be seen as a hockey and baseball city, the Bruins owned the town when I was a kid. Now they're a distant 4th out of 4 pro teams, and truth be told, they're probably closer to #5 Revs than to whomever is #3 now (Sox/Celts)? Bobby Orr's Bruins. Sad but true. Things do change, for the better and sometimes for the worst. The Pats could be back to #4 by 2040. Who knows?
I see UMaine/Downeast Maine/Orono more like a Green Bay NFL outpost, with deeper roots in the game. The Packers are seen where they are in their game and in the NFL because they are a modest little isolated outpost with deep roots in the game, and dating back to the early days of the NFL. They had lots of early success, and even after they hit hard times, it was still a diehard football place, and the Lombardi Era cemented that, probably forever. Walshy is your Lombardi, right down to their respective tragic "before their time" passings. There may never be another like him (them?) but they were magnetic and magical and mythical, and THAT is what you have going for you guys.
All the more reason to get Monty back. THAT is your ticket, and that's how UMaine gets back to glory. He lived it, he understands, and he would embrace it. I'm jealous that you guys have that; all UNH has out there is Mike Ayers, who's learned at the foot of Coach York at BC, but hasn't been around for any of their D-1 titles. You gotta go for Monty, and I think Monty would lunge at the chance to reconnect his legacy with Walsh and UMaine. You'll hate yourselves if you don't at least try very hard to make it happen with Monty.
JMHO.
Chuck Murray
WIS & Effingwoods Hockey Almanac
(1) "Miracle worker" may be closer than you think to what's needed to turn your ship around. At least a Nate Leaman type, but of course, Providence already has him tied up long-term;
(2) "History" is overrated when it's 20 or so years ago in a fringe sport. It's absolutely important to you guys, and I'm not trying to degrade it. But do you think Johnny Blue Chip from Glendale AZ is reading the USCHO boards and thinking to himself, "Wow, me and my bros can be like the next Kariya family at UMaine"? I doubt it. UMaine is also the most distant of the five HEA programs from their last D-1 title (UMass, PC, BC and BU all have won more recently). UMaine's glory days players are all past their NHL careers now, so even that link to "history" is pretty much gone, other than Coach Montgomery, of course. You'll probably have Swayman (like UNH has DeSmith) to point to for awhile, but history means more to you (us) than it does most anywhere else, and I say that with sadness and resignation;
(4) "Facilities upgrades" are the single most overrated factor I'd attribute to a program's national success. Alfond Arena was never a cutting edge facility, yet Walshy and a talented bunch of players won at the highest level. UNH made a huge deal a few years ago about "facilities upgrades" like a jumbotron and assorted other doo-dads. If it moved the needle with the program's success, I haven't seen it. Quite to the contrary, there's been regression.
At this point I doubt BU or BC’s success is any more relevant than Maine’s. The last time either of them won a national championship any new recruits would be very young. Swayman is a huge deal given where he is playing.
I wholeheartedly agree with 91, Maine is a top program even if the last decade has been rough. The upgrades to the Alford and the entire campus will be a game changer.
In a lot of ways I don’t think either Timmy or Red were great fits for Maine. Hopefully whoever they get is able to bring some of that passion and energy Shawn had. He was a great coach but more than anything else he made supporting Maine hockey fun and his passion rubbed off on the fans. That’s been missing since he passed.
umhockey91
Well-known member
This isn't rocket science. Recruiting definitely matters but so does having a coach that realizes that filling up the penalty box and facing 50 shots per game is NOT a recipe for winning/success.
Fishman'81
Black Bear since D-2
Fishman'81
Black Bear since D-2
Why are you giving the fat troll Chuck any leeway here?
Perhaps we should all go to the UNH thread, and pile on to that similarly hapless program.
New Hampshire and Maine are both hopeless as of now, but Chuckie is very busy on the Maine thread, and he's wasting his breath, unless you bite on his BS.
This is the most I’ve agreed with you in quite a while. I should have known better.
Chuck Murray
WIS & Effingwoods Hockey Almanac
Coaches like Walshy don't grow on trees. Coaches like Standbrook, who are content to labor in the shadows as a #2 who can carry the recruiting load effectively to free up the #1 guy to coach, might even be rarer birds. You had the #1 guy to get your program established, and #2 (Standbrook) was there to support him AND then stick around to support his successor. I'm not saying it's luck - someone made some exceptional hires, that's not luck - but it is very unusual, and increasingly difficult to replicate. What UMaine fans are finding out over the last two decades was how important it was to have both coaches there for the Championship era, and over the last decade how important it was to have Standbrook still around to keep the talent flowing to Whitehead. I'm sure you guys knew how important they were, but their absences are only highlighting their worth.
Gendron (and I believe Leaman) were also assistants during UMaine's Championship era, but clearly Gendron was not up to the HC job at an elite D-1 level. That's OK, since most D-1 coaches now and forever before aren't up to that level, either.
One thing I do notice for sure is, UMaine fans are more optimistic that us UNH fans about our chances of getting the next big deal D-1 coach in the door. Probably because you've experienced that before, whereas UNH has hired guys good enough to only come close (Holt, then Umile). There also aren't too many present-day coaches who are as outwardly passionate about their work like Walshy was. Sure, I gave him a ton of grief in the past for being the "human lightning rod", but guys like that, when they're not on your side, they're annoying. When they ARE on your side, you love them. Again. it's fortunate UMaine fans experienced this. But it's not easily replaceable, which is why Walsh/Standbrook were a great coaching team.
I mean this in the nicest way possible ... but you guys were absolutely spoiled by W/S. As I'd posted on another thread, it's been almost 20 years now since a comparable pair (Carvel/Barr) has graced the HEA arenas and transformed a program like your program was transformed in the later stages of the last century. And they will likely be splitting after this year, or next season at the latest. Hard to pull off to begin with, and even harder to preserve. But you guys had it in Orono, and chances are you'll never see their likes again.
Think about it ... what HEA program has had a nationally successful and sustainable "second act" at a championship level? BC never won it all before York, BU hasn't won since Parker, UMass (and arguably Providence) was a coaches' graveyard until their current guys came in and won it all. UMaine is still looking for the next Walsh. And about a half-dozen other programs are still waiting for the arrival of their first such iconic national-winning coach. BU can say they had Kelly in their ECAC days pre-Parker, making Parker himself a "second act". So that's one (1) "second act" in 50 years or so.
If winning at that level was easy, everyone would eventually be doing it. Most programs never get there. Yours did. So just be realistic and appreciate how amazing it was when it happened, and understand that if somehow Monty were to return and spark a second run of Nationals, just how fortunate UMaine Hockey and its fans would be. Many (most) never get the first one. I've been lucky to follow some pro teams who've had that level of success (DRW, NYG, Spurs) and those didn't happen by accident either, nor were they easily replicated once key movers in those organizations moved on.
Enjoy it while it lasts, consider yourself fortunate you enjoyed the ride, but NEVER take a return of such success for granted.
Chuck Murray
WIS & Effingwoods Hockey Almanac
Nice.
Here I am, pushing for Monty's return, telling you guys as a neutral how fortunate you were to enjoy the experience of Walsh/Standbrook, even admitting I'm jealous at one point ... and you think I'm "piling on" whilst I've carefully been pointing out how UNH has never experienced your program's level of success. Do you even bother to read, or do you just act paranoid when someone whose ZIP code doesn't begin with 04XXX has the nerve to post on your thread?
Has it occurred to you that, as a UNH fan, I want your program to be good, so our AD is forced to compete and try to keep up with you guys?!?
Fishman'81
Black Bear since D-2
I don't buy your BS, you are just here to rag on Maine, clearly. Don't you have a ship in your basement to build inside a bottle?
Please go away, it's obvious that you are just on this thread to bust balls.
You might fool some people, but you don't fool me. Find another hobby.
I don't have the patience to read the entire posts but whoever is talking about "money is tight" might not be aware of the oodles of money the University was blessed with:
UMaine receives largest single donation ever for athletics from Harold Alfond Foundation (wabi.tv) = $90m for div 1 athletics
$110 million sports complex to be built at UMaine – The Maine Campus
UMaine’s Vision for Tomorrow comprehensive campaign exceeds $200 million goal - UMaine News - University of Maine
Not all money goes to hockey but it does take the financial pressure off the University in all other areas, and allows it more freedom to invest in worthwhile causes (+100k for coaches salary perhaps?)
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NorthMike
Well-known member
It struck me that it appears the Carvel/Barr team could be as good or better. Will see if they stay together and Barr is content in the recruiting role.
walrus
Wind up workin' in a gas station
Everyone keeps pointing to the proposed upgrades, without a coach that means diddly squat. No player is coming here because they serve baked potatoes or have neon lights on outside of entrance. I'm sure a nice weight room matters but support from Admin, coaches and staff are still where its at. I thought Guites comments were interesting in that he would be different from Red. Until we know what the "search" comes up with, this program is still in the cellar.
theprofromdover
The Original Dope Detector
He quit because he didn’t want to wear a mask. It must hurt to be that ignorant.
As I understand it, all of this money is pretty much dedicated to bricks and mortar. While this is important, it's also important to have money for top coaches, recruiting, scholarships and athlete benefits.
Ahh. He believes it’s all propaganda.....someone needs to put him on a plane to India, I was just reading about how bad it is there. Walk the halls of the hospital, look at all the “actors” performing dying scenes, just to trick us all...
Eff Corkum, stay away, your ability to reason is missing.
We’re well aware. Most of that isn’t even going to hockey, other than some lipstick on the Alfond.
That doesn’t pay a head coaches salary and we need $400-500K per year to compete for talent, and we need a much larger recruiting budget.
Mainers are cheap.
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