LSSU Laker Hockey 2012-2013, Part 2

[Bill]

Re: LSSU Laker Hockey 2012-2013, Part 2

I would also like to see a move toward players with good high-end speed. Of course, so do all the oher D-I schools. I can't imagine we on-line hacks have spotted something the hockey coaching establishment has missed. Not likely -- but then again . . .

I believe the Lakers are grabbing the older players because the developent time is chopped down. Perhaps there are better 17-18 year old kids out there (and there are). BUt maybe, at 17-18, they are a year or two from being fully up to speed. With the LSSU players, they are generally full-grown when they hit campus. A year of D-I weights fills them out a bit more, but there isn't a long sharp learning curve. Also, older players from the junior ranks are often captains and asst. captains on JR teams -- and these leadership roles follow the players into their freshman years. So if you can't get the high end talent, you get the hardest working collection of kids you can find. That has, in some ways, always been a relative bead-rock of LSSU hockey

And I have never been sold on the thought process which says "a scorer in juniors should be a scorer in the NCAA." The converse is almost always true, though -- if you can't score in Juniors, you are not going to score in the NCAA. The "next step up" is often pretty steep for many, many kids.

So what does LSSU have? Well, to be honest there is a very good collection of higher-end talent on the top lines this year than at any time in the past few years. I think there are some nagging injury bugs rolling through the team. I think they have had a few (obviously) defections of a few top-line guys. I think Murdock has come back to earth a little, and I don' know that KK has really ever looked as good as he did early in 2011. I think the Coach was hoping one of the keepers would take the lead, and instead both have stumbled lately. I think the break will heal some bruises and bumps. And I still think this collection of boys can mke some late season noise -- as any collection of veteran players with veteran goalies are able to do.

I mentioned Tech earlier because I think that Coach Mel has the right idea: You can't just grab big, older junior players and expect to push around D-I players anymore. If you have a smaller budget, you need to go for speed, and play an aggressive forecheck. That doesn't mean geting sloppy -- and I think Tech's problems this year have stemmed heavily from injuries and horrible goalkeeping. Bu look at the Tech game plan -- always attacking. The forecheck starts at centre ice -- which is where the (gag . . . ) better Michigan teams attacked. (Note -- under Pearson). From what I've watched this year, Tech is learning to keep its forwards circling back and attacking at centre ice and trying to keep the puck deep in the offensive zone. They are lacking a few big-time players to finish the deal on many nights -- but as noted Mel is only into his 1.5 years of building. But they use the speed at centre ice as part of the team defense.

Speed is nice on offense, but in the modern NCAA you MUST have speed to play defense. As noted, big crunching hits too often get called. And frankly, lets be honest -- a big hit from time to time is unlikely to deter a modernNCAA hockey player. These guys are in great shape, they are all darn tough, and there really arn't too many cowards or soft players anymore. At least not to such a point that one big hit will slow them up. Those days are also done. Speed closes passing lanes, makes poke checks, back-checks, gets into position quicker, and recovers when a player is caught out of position. Speed, not size, is required to win in the NCAA.

LSSU can do that, too. Smaller (perhaps). Faster -- needed. Speed over size would be my game plan. Yes, you need some size to keep the flies off. But you need speed.

Now, as I said earlier -- easier said than done.

With the top ranked players picked over and committing bfore they even turn 16 nowadays, a program like LSSU has to alter its vision. Everybody wants size and speed. North Dakota and BC and Wisconsin will always get a whle lot of players with both size and speed. So in order to get speed to come to LSSU, you have to find players who are overlooked. Who gets overlooked? Small guys. I see Tech going in that direction. I also see UAF (er, um, Alaska) going in that direction. Western, too. Smaller, but faster. If they can do it, so can LSSU.

My two cents

I don't think we're too far off in opinions. I expect most of the Lakers recruiting to continue to be 19-20 year old kids. But I also think we need to make more of an effort to grab onto some talented 17 or old 18 kids; they can still develop in Juniors for a year or two before coming to school if that works out best. Right now, it doesn't even appear we are trying to compete for any of those guys.

 

[Lakerblue]

Re: LSSU Laker Hockey 2012-2013, Part 2

I don't think we're too far off in opinions. I expect most of the Lakers recruiting to continue to be 19-20 year old kids. But I also think we need to make more of an effort to grab onto some talented 17 or old 18 kids; they can still develop in Juniors for a year or two before coming to school if that works out best. Right now, it doesn't even appear we are trying to compete for any of those guys.

So true. And my wonder is whether LSSU has tried to land these players, with "two years of growing in Juniors" and just not been able to lock up the player? That appears to be the crux of all our questions: Are the Lakers making an effort for those young high-upside kids? Are they just being rebuffed? Or are they deciding that its not worth wasting their time, and the coaches should fixate on the older late bloomers?

 

[sm2pk]

Re: LSSU Laker Hockey 2012-2013, Part 2

Bring in all the players you like and if this offense isn't solved after 8 years, you have to wonder if new players will make much of a difference . How many times do we see good numbers on a recruit and he just dies in the offensive zone . I think the real question to me at least , is it the players or the coaching staff that is producing a bad offense . If it is the players,they need to go after better recruits. If it is the coaching staff,they need to look for answers outside the box.

 

[Bill]

Re: LSSU Laker Hockey 2012-2013, Part 2

So true. And my wonder is whether LSSU has tried to land these players, with "two years of growing in Juniors" and just not been able to lock up the player? That appears to be the crux of all our questions: Are the Lakers making an effort for those young high-upside kids? Are they just being rebuffed? Or are they deciding that its not worth wasting their time, and the coaches should fixate on the older late bloomers?

I think part of it has been the lack of money in the budget, so they haven't spent much time pursuing the younger players. I'm not up on all the recruiting rules/restrictions, but I think there's a cutoff, age wise, as to when you can start bringing potential recruits in for paid visits. It might be around 17; I'm not sure. Perhaps FRICKER or someone else up to speed on the rules can tell us. Kids can come in for visits on their own dime (parents dime really) regardless of age from what I understand. I think I remember FRICKER (I think it was him) saying that a lot of the big name schools have middlemen that steer the very young kids towards their programs, i.e. let at kid know a school is interested in him prior to the time the college coach can legally initiate contact with the kid. Then if the kid makes a visit on his own dime, the school can in effect treat it as a recruiting visit, show the kid around, etc., since the school isn't paying for it.

But the point is the vast majority of Div 1 schools (big and small) are now commonly getting verbal commitments from kids 17 and 18 ,and in some cases even 16 and younger. LSSU is one of the few schools that isn't doing that.

 

[Bill]

Nail.. head.. you just hit, it in my opinion...

Also a fair comment about recruits from DB Cooper, in that the staff wants to fill a role with another "type" role guy. -Though it could be the staff is just drawing comparison to a player folks are already familiar with in order to best describe a new guy coming in. Could be a couple different ways to take their comments, I guess. (But my thought is you don't pass up recruiting a top goal scorer because you want a role player guy to kill penalties & skate circles but has little offensive upside).


Can't agree with Bill overall, on his "players size being a problem" theory though. We should put the blame where it's due and that it's the CCHA has changed the way they want the game called to where practically any contact is a penalty. The CCHA is the only place where these ridiculous, ticky-tac, contact penalties are the norm. Hockey is still a contact sport, players will play as such and the game should be called as such. The league isn't doing it's players any justice by having officials call games the way they are.

And lets be honest, CCHA officials are out there trying to "manage" a game, not call what they see on the ice. A team can draw 2-3 straight penalties and continue to take liberties on opponents while the refs let it go, because in their mind they have to call the next penalty on the other team.. They want to even up the penalty calls & don't want the stat to seem too lopsided in a post game box score.

Now, the big guys the Lakers have can all skate, you can't take that away from them. Good hands, good skating & footwork on a guy 6-4 with some physical prowess where he can hold his own. That is a plus for any player in the game of hockey, anywhere. To say, having all those attributes in one player is a negative thing, is puzzling to me. I'm sure NHL scouts just hate the thought of guys 6-5 that can skate, hit & score trying to break into the leage.. Why would anyone want those guys on a team?

It will be interesting to see what happens next year when the CCHA is dead & gone and these teams play in a new league with different officiating. Hopefully the days of calling penalties just because one guy is 7 inches taller and 30 pounds stronger than the other, will be overwith.

Just to be clear on my "size" comment. I'm not saying the Lakers recruit too many big guys. I'm saying they have been too reluctant to recruit small, fast guys. There are signs that they may be starting to correct that.

As far as referees go, although the CCHA refs may be the worst, I think referees in the other conferences have been calling things closer also. Even the WCHA has been seeing a lot more checking from behind penalties the past few years. And we don't really know yet what refs were going to have in the nWCHA next season. We could wind up with some of the current CCHA refs.

 

[sm2pk]

Re: LSSU Laker Hockey 2012-2013, Part 2

I thought a few years back Roque made the comment about changing from bigger to smaller and seems that didn't work out either. We seem to be bouncing all over the place on what type of players they need to get and do we really even know if it is player selection that is keeping this team back . Maybe it isn't the players at all but the coaching staff. Western changes coaches a couple years ago and now are battling as a top tier team in the nation . Seems Western went from a nobody to a somebody in two years and we all know they just didn't hit the lottery on recruiting .Bowling Green was always battling for last place and now last year they play at the Joe and last weekend they made Lake State look like a last place team and all this has happened after they changed to a new coaching staff.

It's always one of two things,no talent or not enough at least or just poor coaching . Pick your medicine on which it is.

 

[FRICKER]

Re: LSSU Laker Hockey 2012-2013, Part 2

My experience is that 16-17 year olds, even though they may have elite skills, don't have the same strength or maturity as k.ids who have played one or two years of Juniors in the USHL. I may take a super-skilled player who comes in as a "true Freshman" two or even three years to elevate his game to the D1 level. Many of the players who go to a Michigan, BC, Minny, or Denver, are paired on the first or second line with the best players on those rosters. Lake State (and many others) don't get a sniff at getting those players, and many have given up trying, especially as recruiting dollars dwindle.

 

[DM2SM]

Re: LSSU Laker Hockey 2012-2013, Part 2

I don't think people are saying to bring in 16-17 year olds but that it may be easier to land a potential top end player by committing a few and letting them play junior hockey for a few years.
Personally I don't completely agree with that topic. I have watched the Lakers play for some time and I think the talent level has improved greatly over the eight years that Coach Roque has been in charge. You can go back to the McVoy's, Perkovich, Schofield, Acton, Guysbers, Jean, Trottman through the present. It is unfair to blame the players because year in and year out we are in the National tournament picture until mid January and then fade.
I am not blaming Coach Roque or his staff either but to blame the players or say the loss of Campbell or Jean is the reason is just wrong because the same thing happened last year when we had them and the year before etc.
I choose to be thankful that we have a division I program and that finally everyone is happy and seems to be getting along. What happens on the ice is the least of my concern. I just want to go to games and be entertained and when everything is negative it takes away from the fun of the game. LSSU and the hockey team are as big of an event as there is in SSM. I love the Eagles as well but history shows they may last ten years but it's hard to keep a junior team in the area. The Lakers have been here as long as I can remember. It's up to the University administration to determine the level of success they want to have and the best way to ensure success is to commit dollars such as Western Michigan and Bowling Green have done as well as U-Minn Mankato and UNO. I would argue that there is vast improvement in Houghton as well and they are on the verge of breaking through, at least when you talk to people from the west end. These coaches did not come cheep. Love them or hate them, I think we are getting our monies worth out of this coaching staff. Coach Roque has secured money that will give us a beautiful building in 8 months. As I have said before, someone else could come in and win a National Title and not bring $5Million dollars to the University. Let's stay on the band wagon.

 

[FRICKER]

Re: LSSU Laker Hockey 2012-2013, Part 2

DM2SM............the problem with committing to a 16-17 year old and then letting them play Juniors for a year or two is that, if they start lighting it up, they'll be lured away by a WCHA program or now, a Biug Ten
program. It would be too easy to steal them away - Lake State doesn't have that strong a draw!

 

[sm2pk]

Re: LSSU Laker Hockey 2012-2013, Part 2

DM2SM..what bandwagon are you wanting to stay on ? The bandwagon that cant get 2000 fans to a game ? DM2SM , if you want to see full arenas again with a loud crowd and excitement,the bandwagon has to be a winner . I have been to Bowling GReen games this season when they were losing and the place was half empty and dead . I also was there for the Lakers and the place had over 3000 each night and it was loud and exciting for their fans. Western games were always half empty and dead and now that they are winning,full,loud,and exciting. Only winning will bring back the fans to games for the Lakers . Just liking a coach isn't going to do it.

 

[Bill]

Re: LSSU Laker Hockey 2012-2013, Part 2

DM2SM............the problem with committing to a 16-17 year old and then letting them play Juniors for a year or two is that, if they start lighting it up, they'll be lured away by a WCHA program or now, a Biug Ten
program. It would be too easy to steal them away - Lake State doesn't have that strong a draw!

I haven't seen much evidence of that type of thing happening. I know a verbal commitment isn't binding but isn't there kind of a gentlemen's agreement among Div 1 coaches not to poach each other's verbal commitments? Some of the elite kids are de-committing and going to play major junior instead, but that's different from committing to one school, de-committing, and then going to a different school. I'm not saying that never happens, but I haven't seen many reports of it.

 

[Lakerblue]

Re: LSSU Laker Hockey 2012-2013, Part 2

I haven't seen much evidence of that type of thing happening. I know a verbal commitment isn't binding but isn't there kind of a gentlemen's agreement among Div 1 coaches not to poach each other's verbal commitments? Some of the elite kids are de-committing and going to play major junior instead, but that's different from committing to one school, de-committing, and then going to a different school. I'm not saying that never happens, but I haven't seen many reports of it.

I agree. De-commits in college hockey have been extremely rare, at least from my limited vantage point. The larger risk for high-upside 16-17 year olds is Major Junior.

 

[Lakerblue]

Re: LSSU Laker Hockey 2012-2013, Part 2

The only person trying to not help the program is Athletic Director Kris Dunbar. She has made it pretty clear with some of her comments that her main focus is the DII sports, specifically women's basketball. I have also heard that she has been giving students a hard time lately regarding cheering, noisemakers, etc. and stifling their ability to get the Taffy rocking! It's no wonder students don't show up like at Western or BG if that is truly what is going on. She should be moving the whole program further ahead, not just trying to maintain the status quo and pay the light bill. Maybe it isn't the coach's fault. Maybe the problem lies above him....

I don't know . .. we've had some very pro-hockey ADs in the past, and they didn't have any success either. At least Dunbar is working hard at the financial side of the program, and having some success. There is no doubting her D-II basketball love, for sure. All I see is an AD who works well with her coach, and has really improved the fundraising, and funding in general, of the hockey program. I doubt she is intentionally attempting to damped excitement.

 

[MUhawks628]

Re: LSSU Laker Hockey 2012-2013, Part 2

I haven't seen much evidence of that type of thing happening. I know a verbal commitment isn't binding but isn't there kind of a gentlemen's agreement among Div 1 coaches not to poach each other's verbal commitments? Some of the elite kids are de-committing and going to play major junior instead, but that's different from committing to one school, de-committing, and then going to a different school. I'm not saying that never happens, but I haven't seen many reports of it.

Figured I could throw out one example. Austin Czarnik was commited to Michigan State for a couple years before decommiting and ultimatley ending up at Miami. Although, at the time I believe the expecatation was he would sign with Windsor so it wasn't a "poach" per say.

 

[Lakerblue]

Re: LSSU Laker Hockey 2012-2013, Part 2

Lakerblue - Im not one to run with hearsay so what I know is basically what I have personally gathered from my dealings. I have spoken with several students on campus and they tell me she took away their ability to use noisemakers (pots & pans guys). They wanted to move the student section to center ice to be more of a nuisance to the opposing bench and she moved them under the presidents box so they wouldn't yell derogatory cheers (go watch a game at Yost, Kris!). She has made no moves of any kind with regard to marketing or ticket sales to get more fans in the seats (The Eagles have raised over $60K from marketing this year). Coach Roque has had more of a positive impact financially than Kris has (and that's not taking into account the 5M project). Don't get me wrong, I like her as a person. She has always been really friendly to me in the past, but this is business. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

I find myself in agreement with your posting. I don't think she has made much of a move to get butts in the seats. Although, to be fair, winning solves those problems.

 

[Bill]

Re: LSSU Laker Hockey 2012-2013, Part 2

BG passed us tonight. We got help from ND so UM is still just behind us.

 

[sm2pk]

Re: LSSU Laker Hockey 2012-2013, Part 2

BG passed us tonight. We got help from ND so UM is still just behind us.

Mi State is the team we need to thank. There is noway that MI State will pass us. We hope.

 

[FRICKER]

Re: LSSU Laker Hockey 2012-2013, Part 2

Bill, It's been several years since I was around recruiting assistants while with a few Junior teams, but if there ever was a "gentlemen's agreement" about recruiting verbally committed players, that had ended even back then. You couldn't believe the "stuff" coaches were saying to trash programs. They usually wouldn't aggressively recruit a verbal commit, but if the player opened the door................Hockey Night
In Boston, which ran most of the summer, was a good place for this to happen.
Lakerblue........I'm glad that the Lakers AD hasn't allowed the student section to be too much like the student section at Yost. I have been there several times when dads took thier young kids out of the arena to get away from the gross/vular chants (With a name like "Frick", Matt heard his share of the verbal abuse"). Also, is it surprising that Kris Dunbar is a big supporter of women's BB? - isn't that where she came from?

 

[LSSULaker889294]

Re: LSSU Laker Hockey 2012-2013, Part 2

Mi State is the team we need to thank. There is noway that MI State will pass us. We hope.

We have to thank Ferris State as well, to keep NMU further behind us in the standings. Let's hope for another Notre Dame and Ferris State victory tomorrow night.

 

[Bill]

Re: LSSU Laker Hockey 2012-2013, Part 2

Bill, It's been several years since I was around recruiting assistants while with a few Junior teams, but if there ever was a "gentlemen's agreement" about recruiting verbally committed players, that had ended even back then. You couldn't believe the "stuff" coaches were saying to trash programs. They usually wouldn't aggressively recruit a verbal commit, but if the player opened the door................Hockey Night
In Boston, which ran most of the summer, was a good place for this to happen.
Lakerblue........I'm glad that the Lakers AD hasn't allowed the student section to be too much like the student section at Yost. I have been there several times when dads took thier young kids out of the arena to get away from the gross/vular chants (With a name like "Frick", Matt heard his share of the verbal abuse"). Also, is it surprising that Kris Dunbar is a big supporter of women's BB? - isn't that where she came from?

FRICKER, was it you or someone else on here that mentioned a few years back that there are middlemen out there looking for young elite talent and then steering them towards whichever big name program that has their (middleman's) interest prior to the point that Div 1 coaches can legally initiate contact with these kids?

Kris Dunbar is from a basketball oriented family in a hockey oriented town. She was a very good basketball player and coach, and probably isn't happy with the Lakers women's team struggles the past few years. My concern is that I hope she doesn't let the hockey program languish while focusing too much on trying to get women's basketball back on track. (The men's basketball team seems to be faring better.)