Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

[Priceless]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Idol worship is hard

Why'd you have to bring Clay Aiken and Jordin Sparks into this?

 

[Handyman]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

So when a father in 500 BC sold his 13 year old girl into life-long sexual slavery, you think that the definition of her relationship with her husband is the same as the definition of your relationship with your wife? Fascinating position you've had to contort yourself into, there - hope you don't throw your hip out of joint extricating yourself.

He is quite nimble...have to be to get off that cross he continually nails himself too all the time

 

[Priceless]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

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“Viewpoint” host John Fugelsang speaks with military widow Karen Morgan about the Defense of Marriage Act, which discriminates against same-sex couples. Freedom to Marry published a video about how Morgan is being denied spousal benefits because of DOMA. Morgan’s wife, Charlie — a veteran — died of breast cancer. Despite the obstacles Morgan is facing, she is hopeful that things will change. “I’m very optimistic that DOMA is going to be declared unconstitutional. I think that the public has made a decision on that.”

She adds that there has been overwhelming support from other military families and from Charlie’s superiors in the military. “They’ve all expressed a wish to help us — their hands are tied. They can’t do anything about it because of this federal law that’s standing in the way. They feel like it’s the right thing to do to reach out to us, there’s just not a lot they can do,” she says.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Can't you come up with a better red herring than that?

Red herrings can be fun.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/M7e16yDFjdc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[leswp1]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

The Boy Scouts have been pressured into making a change against who they've been their entire existence and against what at least a good chunk of the folks who send their kids to the Boy Scouts believe. All groups set all kinds of standards of what they believe in or not and what is acceptable or not acceptable for membership and participation in their groups. But, I guess the right of association, as with other rights in this country, isn't what it once was. This is simply a case where one group is forcing their views on the other group and won't rest until all differing perspectives are crushed. The Boy Scouts I'm sure have a number of criteria for who should be in leadership beyond this one, and if someone can't meet any of those standards, then they shouldn't be in leadership.If sexuality isn't important, then why has everybody been having a fit at the Boy Scouts for the last umpteen years because they don't embrace the views others are forcing upon them? You can't go both ways at once. Certainly it's not the only or primary thing to focus on, but obviously it's important enough that people have exerted enormous pressure to the point the Scouts finally caved in. Can't blame them as I said. The ugliness that came up against them is washing across this nation and will come up against anyone else who doesn't think and do as some people say they should.

The people I know (we have a very active BS troop in our church with multiple Eagle Scouts and adult leaders) who are "having a fit" are straight Boy Scouts and BS Leaders, not gay ones. It wasn't an issue to them until the BS were condoning and encouraging the exclusion. That disturbed them. They do not feel the policy to exclude is congruent with what they had been taught otherwise, that the BS teach clear thinking, honor, respect, and other character building blocks that the prejudice directly goes against. Perhaps a large chunk of who you are exposed to shares your opinion.
but I truly have not spoken to a BS who is upset with this current change other than to think the ban on adults is ridiculous.

For a good chunk of their existence (probably the whole of their existence) there have been gay Boy Scouts and gay Leaders who have been silent. The only thing that changed is the necessity to omit mentioning a sexual preference- unless to be a BS you have to declare you are straight? I don't remember that being in the oath. In yrs past when no one could speak freely how much time did the Boy Scouts spend on homosexuality? (serious question as I do not know any BS to ask at the moment). Was it a major topic of conversation? If the BS are based on Godly life which denomination is right? There are BS attached to all different Christian sects.

The difference between a heterosexual and a homosexual is really not that great. Sexual preference does not discriminate. Gay or straight people have the same traits. There are pedophiles, helpers, predators, brilliant people, stupid people, amazingly good Godly people, and truly evil people of both persuasions. Being Gay or Straight has no influence on which of these someone is. What makes being gay any more powerful a sin than pre or extramarital sex, beating your wife, drinking too much, coveting your neighbors stuff, thinking impure thoughts? All of these are repetitive sins and mentioned in the Bible way more than homosexuality . Why pick homosexuality as a crusade over actively shunning the people who do not pay their taxes, steal, neglect or abuse their family/community, do not honor God? These are the things Jesus gave his sermons about. He said over and over that we were not to get fixated on minutia. The Pharisees obsessed with the 'Law' and were overzealous about things that didn't mean as much as caring for the poor, feeding the widows. According to what my church teaches me and what I have read in the Bible that is what Jesus chose to spend his ministry talking about.

Just a note- I am Lutheran. The synod I belong to is an accepting, liberal (oh no!111!1!1!!) church that is not shrinking, but growing. We are not wasting away in depravity practicing what Jesus taught which is "We are all God's children. ALL of us."

Acceptance (or even tolerance) of a group into society is one thing. Forcing a private group with the right to refuse service to anyone to accept members is completely another. The Augusta Club (yes, those green jackets actually signify membership) just recently admitted the first woman into the golf club. Recall that admittance to the club is by invitation only. I don't recall hearing the stains complaining about that. Or are women not very high on their priority list, assuming they ever were?

I remember a firestorm around this. Maybe being a woman makes the protests more memorable?

 

[WisconsinWildcard]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

The people I know (we have a very active BS troop in our church with multiple Eagle Scouts and adult leaders) who are "having a fit" are straight Boy Scouts and BS Leaders, not gay ones. It wasn't an issue to them until the BS were condoning and encouraging the exclusion. That disturbed them. They do not feel the policy to exclude is congruent with what they had been taught otherwise, that the BS teach clear thinking, honor, respect, and other character building blocks that the prejudice directly goes against. Perhaps a large chunk of who you are exposed to shares your opinion.
but I truly have not spoken to a BS who is upset with this current change other than to think the ban on adults is ridiculous.

For a good chunk of their existence (probably the whole of their existence) there have been gay Boy Scouts and gay Leaders who have been silent. The only thing that changed is the necessity to omit mentioning a sexual preference- unless to be a BS you have to declare you are straight? I don't remember that being in the oath. In yrs past when no one could speak freely how much time did the Boy Scouts spend on homosexuality? (serious question as I do not know any BS to ask at the moment). Was it a major topic of conversation? If the BS are based on Godly life which denomination is right? There are BS attached to all different Christian sects.

The difference between a heterosexual and a homosexual is really not that great. Sexual preference does not discriminate. Gay or straight people have the same traits. There are pedophiles, helpers, predators, brilliant people, stupid people, amazingly good Godly people, and truly evil people of both persuasions. Being Gay or Straight has no influence on which of these someone is. What makes being gay any more powerful a sin than pre or extramarital sex, beating your wife, drinking too much, coveting your neighbors stuff, thinking impure thoughts? All of these are repetitive sins and mentioned in the Bible way more than homosexuality . Why pick homosexuality as a crusade over actively shunning the people who do not pay their taxes, steal, neglect or abuse their family/community, do not honor God? These are the things Jesus gave his sermons about. He said over and over that we were not to get fixated on minutia. The Pharisees obsessed with the 'Law' and were overzealous about things that didn't mean as much as caring for the poor, feeding the widows. According to what my church teaches me and what I have read in the Bible that is what Jesus chose to spend his ministry talking about.

Just a note- I am Lutheran. The synod I belong to is an accepting, liberal (oh no!111!1!1!!) church that is not shrinking, but growing. We are not wasting away in depravity practicing what Jesus taught which is "We are all God's children. ALL of us."

I remember a firestorm around this. Maybe being a woman makes the protests more memorable?

I think you just won the thread.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

The only thing that changed is the necessity to omit mentioning a sexual preference- unless to be a BS you have to declare you are straight? I don't remember that being in the oath. In yrs past when no one could speak freely how much time did the Boy Scouts spend on homosexuality? (serious question as I do not know any BS to ask at the moment). Was it a major topic of conversation?

I remember that when I was in Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts it was pretty much the general consensus that all girls had cooties

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

The people I know (we have a very active BS troop in our church with multiple Eagle Scouts and adult leaders) who are "having a fit" are straight Boy Scouts and BS Leaders, not gay ones. It wasn't an issue to them until the BS were condoning and encouraging the exclusion. That disturbed them. They do not feel the policy to exclude is congruent with what they had been taught otherwise, that the BS teach clear thinking, honor, respect, and other character building blocks that the prejudice directly goes against. Perhaps a large chunk of who you are exposed to shares your opinion.
but I truly have not spoken to a BS who is upset with this current change other than to think the ban on adults is ridiculous.

For a good chunk of their existence (probably the whole of their existence) there have been gay Boy Scouts and gay Leaders who have been silent. The only thing that changed is the necessity to omit mentioning a sexual preference- unless to be a BS you have to declare you are straight? I don't remember that being in the oath. In yrs past when no one could speak freely how much time did the Boy Scouts spend on homosexuality? (serious question as I do not know any BS to ask at the moment). Was it a major topic of conversation? If the BS are based on Godly life which denomination is right? There are BS attached to all different Christian sects.

The difference between a heterosexual and a homosexual is really not that great. Sexual preference does not discriminate. Gay or straight people have the same traits. There are pedophiles, helpers, predators, brilliant people, stupid people, amazingly good Godly people, and truly evil people of both persuasions. Being Gay or Straight has no influence on which of these someone is. What makes being gay any more powerful a sin than pre or extramarital sex, beating your wife, drinking too much, coveting your neighbors stuff, thinking impure thoughts? All of these are repetitive sins and mentioned in the Bible way more than homosexuality . Why pick homosexuality as a crusade over actively shunning the people who do not pay their taxes, steal, neglect or abuse their family/community, do not honor God? These are the things Jesus gave his sermons about. He said over and over that we were not to get fixated on minutia. The Pharisees obsessed with the 'Law' and were overzealous about things that didn't mean as much as caring for the poor, feeding the widows. According to what my church teaches me and what I have read in the Bible that is what Jesus chose to spend his ministry talking about.

Just a note- I am Lutheran. The synod I belong to is an accepting, liberal (oh no!111!1!1!!) church that is not shrinking, but growing. We are not wasting away in depravity practicing what Jesus taught which is "We are all God's children. ALL of us."

I remember a firestorm around this. Maybe being a woman makes the protests more memorable?

Some of the worries about this are stemming around the same reasons why boys and girls are typically kept separated during events where the temptation of promiscuity could very well exist. Now that there's another variable thrown in where boys could hook up with boys or girls could hook up with girls, that adds to this concern. Does this mean that just because they're together that they'll be participating in any sorts of sexual contact? No it doesn't, although with some overzealous parents this is a real possibility. I'm sure that there's someone who will be reporting to me the calendar year, as if that had any meaning whatsoever. Sure, there's more sexual education happening in this day and at younger and younger ages. You have to wonder when any side will be going too far.

 

[joecct]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Noted Canonist, Dr. Ed Peters gives his take on Canon Law (how the Catholic Church is governed) and the Boy Scouts. Take the time to read it.

http://canonlawblog.wordpress.com/

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Noted Canonist, Dr. Ed Peters gives his take on Canon Law (how the Catholic Church is governed) and the Boy Scouts. Take the time to read it.

http://canonlawblog.wordpress.com/

For those who don't take the time, he argues that even the Catholic church accepts homosexuals as members, so why should Catholics chastise the Scouts for being equally welcoming? Good point.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Some of the worries about this are stemming around the same reasons why boys and girls are typically kept separated during events where the temptation of promiscuity could very well exist. Now that there's another variable thrown in where boys could hook up with boys or girls could hook up with girls, that adds to this concern. Does this mean that just because they're together that they'll be participating in any sorts of sexual contact? No it doesn't, although with some overzealous parents this is a real possibility. I'm sure that there's someone who will be reporting to me the calendar year, as if that had any meaning whatsoever. Sure, there's more sexual education happening in this day and at younger and younger ages. You have to wonder when any side will be going too far.

That is a valid point, but then is that not a worry everywhere? Should gays not be allowed to go to summer camp because of that? when I went to camp there was tons of boy/girl fraternization that never stopped them from having both sexes there. If a kid is gay should he be excluded because he might do the same thing?

There is no perfect answer but I would err on the side of not excluding people...I realize not everyone feels that way.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

That is a valid point, but then is that not a worry everywhere? Should gays not be allowed to go to summer camp because of that? when I went to camp there was tons of boy/girl fraternization that never stopped them from having both sexes there. If a kid is gay should he be excluded because he might do the same thing?

There is no perfect answer but I would err on the side of not excluding people...I realize not everyone feels that way.

Co-ed summer camps are a completely different bear. There are still all-male and all-female summer camps out there, and those are the closest model to the comparison of BS and GS. Why were they created as such in the first place?

Obviously we have to wonder how far is too far.

 

[joecct]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

For those who don't take the time, he argues that even the Catholic church accepts homosexuals as members, so why should Catholics chastise the Scouts for being equally welcoming? Good point.

It also states that both organizations want their unmarried youth to be celibate.

 

[burd]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Fresh Fish started this thread with some thoughtful comments, and you all have followed that with much of the same, despite the fact that the subject has such political and religious aspects. Very few exchanges, including the sarcastic ones, have been rude or mean spirited, IMO. I'd hate to get caught being overly serious on this board, but it's been a pretty good read, all in all.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

fresh fish started this thread with some thoughtful comments, and you all have followed that with much of the same, despite the fact that the subject has such political and religious aspects. Very few exchanges, including the sarcastic ones, have been rude or mean spirited, imo. I'd hate to get caught being overly serious on this board, but it's been a pretty good read, all in all.

Don't give me that, you snotty-faced heap of parrot droppings! Shut your festering gob, you tit! Your type makes me puke! You vacuous toffee-nosed malodorous pervert!!!

 

[burd]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

don't give me that, you snotty-faced heap of parrot droppings! Shut your festering gob, you tit! Your type makes me puke! You vacuous toffee-nosed malodorous pervert!!!

Yes, you savage, yes!!!! Marry me now!!

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

That is a valid point, but then is that not a worry everywhere? Should gays not be allowed to go to summer camp because of that? when I went to camp there was tons of boy/girl fraternization that never stopped them from having both sexes there. If a kid is gay should he be excluded because he might do the same thing?

There is no perfect answer but I would err on the side of not excluding people...I realize not everyone feels that way.

I don't disagree with your points. However, I suspect arguments on the other side might point out that while there is always boy/girl fraternization, the camp can at least segregate them in many respects, and certainly with respect to sleeping quarters. I'm not aware of too many camps for youngsters where the boys and girls slept in the same rooms/buildings (not that I would have minded). A little trickier with same sex issues.

There is also simply the issue of identification. Pretty easy, in most cases, to pick out boys from girls in order to keep fraternization to a minimum. But do you want to be the camp counselor who has to pick out the gays from the straights in order to keep funny business to a minimum? Lots of thorny issues that will ultimately have to be worked out.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

True...let me change the scenario then a bit. Everyone has heard the jokes (which we all know are not jokes really) about boys when they go to camp (all boys camp) and how that is where they tend to experiment. Most of the time that doesnt involve kids getting expelled from said camp or not allowed to attend. What is the difference between two hetero boys screwing around because they are 13 and stuck in the middle of the woods together and 2 gay boys doing the same? If Timmy is "out" as being gay should that be enough to keep him away while "James" is allowed to stay because he identifies as straight?

As I said there is no perfect answer, and if the camp I went to (it was a co-ed religious camp) had that policy I would argue against it but not force them to change it. My kids though would never attend it since I believe in voting with your pocketbook in matters like these.

 

[WisconsinWildcard]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Yes, you savage, yes!!!! Marry me now!!

Brian Rafalski does not approve of this marriage.

 

[burd]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Brian Rafalski does not approve of this marriage.

Kicked back in the closet by a dam Badger. I shoulda known.