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Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

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Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

leswp1 said:
Just a note- I am Lutheran. The synod I belong to is an accepting, liberal (oh no!111!1!1!!) church that is not shrinking, but growing. We are not wasting away in depravity practicing what Jesus taught which is "We are all God's children. ALL of us."
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Then your denomination is the exception. The statistics for most denominations are what they are, whether you like them or not. The numbers don't lie. The big mainline denominations that have gone liberal almost without an exception are in decline, often steep. I'm not telling you what to believe or anything, but to me it's clear that when you stray from what (to me again) is clear Biblical teaching, it's not surprising that people go elsewhere. Eventually such groups can become little more than a social club, having long lost the power of the Gospel and the love and truth that is in Christ and a vibrant relationship with him. Google episcopal church decline and you'll get a tone of articles. Here's an example: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/opinion/sunday/douthat-can-liberal-christianity-be-saved.html?_r=0
A 23 percent decline in ten years is pretty significant. And when you figure in that the typical Episcopal parishioner is like in their early 60s, the decline can be expected to accelerate.

I won't get into your tone that you are accepting and supposedly others who aren't as liberal as you aren't. That's nonsense of course.

I get along with gay people around me just fine, whether in the workplace, relatives, etc. It's one thing to treat each other with respect and dignity, which everyone deserves. That has nothing to do with whether a person endorses or is pressured to endorse another's choice of behavior.
 
Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Bob, you've got this exactly backwards. People aren't leaving religion because religion is getting too liberal. People are leaving religion because *they've* gotten more liberal and the church is stubbornly, petulantly, refusing to keep up. It's quite bizarre to me that as society's collective view on many social issues (homosexuality, divorce, premarital sex, marijuana use, etc) continues to trend to the more liberal side, you seem to feel that church's best hope for survival is to take an even stronger conservative stance. Rather than attracting new members (and halting the pace of people leaving), it seems to me that conservative denominations are painting themselves into a corner - and that corner of society is shrinking. Clinging to outdated social norms is interfering with the church's ability to spread its primary messages of love, grace, and forgiveness. Is the smug self righteousness really worth that cost?
 
Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

LynahFan said:
Bob, you've got this exactly backwards. People aren't leaving religion because religion is getting too liberal. People are leaving religion because *they've* gotten more liberal and the church is stubbornly, petulantly, refusing to keep up. It's quite bizarre to me that as society's collective view on many social issues (homosexuality, divorce, premarital sex, marijuana use, etc) continues to trend to the more liberal side, you seem to feel that church's best hope for survival is to take an even stronger conservative stance. Rather than attracting new members (and halting the pace of people leaving), it seems to me that conservative denominations are painting themselves into a corner - and that corner of society is shrinking. Clinging to outdated social norms is interfering with the church's ability to spread its primary messages of love, grace, and forgiveness. Is the smug self righteousness really worth that cost?
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Throughout church history the church has thrived when it has kept to its beliefs and not bent to societal whims of the moment. Whereas churches have declined and decayed when they conform themselves to what society wants them to say/do at the moment. If churches embrace all the things a society wants them to at a given moment, they offer nothing unique and compelling to interest people. In that case, I suggest everyone stay home and sleep in on Sunday morning, etc.

I don't appreciate the "smug self righteousness" crack. But, not surprising.
 
Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

LynahFan said:
Bob, you've got this exactly backwards. People aren't leaving religion because religion is getting too liberal. People are leaving religion because *they've* gotten more liberal and the church is stubbornly, petulantly, refusing to keep up. It's quite bizarre to me that as society's collective view on many social issues (homosexuality, divorce, premarital sex, marijuana use, etc) continues to trend to the more liberal side, you seem to feel that church's best hope for survival is to take an even stronger conservative stance. Rather than attracting new members (and halting the pace of people leaving), it seems to me that conservative denominations are painting themselves into a corner - and that corner of society is shrinking. Clinging to outdated social norms is interfering with the church's ability to spread its primary messages of love, grace, and forgiveness. Is the smug self righteousness really worth that cost?
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"Condemn the sin; embrace the sinner."

People are not "leaving" religion; they are merely changing how they practice it.

There is abundant evidence that today's pickup culture is really unhealthy for young women. There are millenias of evidence that drug use in moderation is healthier than drug abuse. Alcoholics Anonymous is a great example of how "submitting to a Higher Power as you understand it" is quite effective for many people.

Society is more bifurcated into "haves" and "have-nots" than it has been in decades and there is a clear correlation (not necessarily causation) between this latent problem and the breakdown of the family and reliance on government welfare programs instead of expanding private charity (where there are reciprocal responsibilities).

I agree with you about the smugness and I don't care about what kind of non-abusive sexual practices consenting adults engage in (including licensed prostitution with routine STD checkups), and evidence suggests that marijuana use is more benign (or alt least less malign) than nicotine or alcohol.

There is a difference between allowing something and encouraging it. We forget that something really worth having has to be earned through discipline and hard work. I don't think this last virtue is at all "outdated."
 
Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Bob Gray said:
Throughout church history the church has thrived when it has kept to its beliefs and not bent to societal whims of the moment. Whereas churches have declined and decayed when they conform themselves to what society wants them to say/do at the moment.
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Exactly why the church never should have accepted the theories of Copernicus. The earth revolving around the sun!? How absurd!
 
Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

unofan said:
Yeah, I have no idea where he came to that conclusion.
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yeah, I have no idea what you're talking about...where exactly is that smug self righteous? That's just saying you're not better than me just because you think my religious beliefs are stupid.
 
Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Bob Gray said:
Throughout church history the church has thrived when it has kept to its beliefs and not bent to societal whims of the moment. Whereas churches have declined and decayed when they conform themselves to what society wants them to say/do at the moment. If churches embrace all the things a society wants them to at a given moment, they offer nothing unique and compelling to interest people. In that case, I suggest everyone stay home and sleep in on Sunday morning, etc.

I don't appreciate the "smug self righteousness" crack. But, not surprising.
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This is a sincere question Bob. How do you personally define gender?
 
Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Bob Gray said:
Throughout church history the church has thrived when it has kept to its beliefs and not bent to societal whims of the moment. Whereas churches have declined and decayed when they conform themselves to what society wants them to say/do at the moment. If churches embrace all the things a society wants them to at a given moment, they offer nothing unique and compelling to interest people. In that case, I suggest everyone stay home and sleep in on Sunday morning, etc.

I don't appreciate the "smug self righteousness" crack. But, not surprising.
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The "smug" comment was not meant to be directed at you, actually, but religion in general (and if anything, the conservative southern church I grew up in, in particular). So many churches tend to pride themselves on maintaining bright, hard lines (and we know what pride goeth before) when Jesus's message was exactly the opposite: break through those lines, get rid of the distinctions, love ALL of your neighbors, ALL have sinned, ALL can be forgiven. No categories, no lines. That's clearly NOT the message that people get from the rest of society, and would actually be a way for the church to distinguish itself.

I have no idea what data you're using to come to the conclusion that the church has thrived when it has kept to its beliefs. Care to elaborate?
 
Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

LynahFan said:
The "smug" comment was not meant to be directed at you, actually, but religion in general (and if anything, the conservative southern church I grew up in, in particular). So many churches tend to pride themselves on maintaining bright, hard lines (and we know what pride goeth before) when Jesus's message was exactly the opposite: break through those lines, get rid of the distinctions, love ALL of your neighbors, ALL have sinned, ALL can be forgiven. No categories, no lines. That's clearly NOT the message that people get from the rest of society, and would actually be a way for the church to distinguish itself.

I have no idea what data you're using to come to the conclusion that the church has thrived when it has kept to its beliefs. Care to elaborate?
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One thing I've found with religion is in their method of dictating lives. Obviously if there are people who feel they need that sort of direction, then that's fine. When you're forcing conversion onto people or "purifying" the disbelieving population is where there gets to be a problem. Like I've said before, the Romans took Christianity and screwed it up by throwing their previous empirical beliefs into it. I also wonder if King James translated the Bible in a manner that it was not all that dissimilar from his rule of law.

Have you ever noticed how a number of the "out of control" people in this world were, at one point or another, catholic schoolchildren?
 
Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

LynahFan said:
The "smug" comment was not meant to be directed at you, actually, but religion in general (and if anything, the conservative southern church I grew up in, in particular). So many churches tend to pride themselves on maintaining bright, hard lines (and we know what pride goeth before) when Jesus's message was exactly the opposite: break through those lines, get rid of the distinctions, love ALL of your neighbors, ALL have sinned, ALL can be forgiven. No categories, no lines. That's clearly NOT the message that people get from the rest of society, and would actually be a way for the church to distinguish itself.

I have no idea what data you're using to come to the conclusion that the church has thrived when it has kept to its beliefs. Care to elaborate?
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It's an observation I and many others have made after studying church history. Unfortunately the early church didn't keep good records on attendance. Not really surprising, given the level of persecution back then as well as the less formal structures of the day.

If you're talking about the mainline denominations, there's data out there on their declining membership. Such as the Episcopaleans having a 23 percent decline in attendance from 2000 to 2010.

There is a time for bright hard lines and a time for blurry or no lines. I agree with your ALLs. But none of those mean there aren't certain things/ways that are consistent with what the Bible says. Truth and love aren't mutually exclusive spheres. You can believe there are absolute truths, yet love and respect those who don't see those absolute truths or even mock them. I do agree that many churches and Christians don't send a message to society that is very appealing.
 
Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Bob Gray said:
It's an observation I and many others have made after studying church history. Unfortunately the early church didn't keep good records on attendance. Not really surprising, given the level of persecution back then as well as the less formal structures of the day.

If you're talking about the mainline denominations, there's data out there on their declining membership. Such as the Episcopaleans having a 23 percent decline in attendance from 2000 to 2010.

There is a time for bright hard lines and a time for blurry or no lines. I agree with your ALLs. But none of those mean there aren't certain things/ways that are consistent with what the Bible says. Truth and love aren't mutually exclusive spheres. You can believe there are absolute truths, yet love and respect those who don't see those absolute truths or even mock them. I do agree that many churches and Christians don't send a message to society that is very appealing.
Click to expand...

Given the Episcopalians were the first ones to come up with the whole homosexual fiasco, I'm not shocked. I remember in my town (a family member is the organist), a number of the parishioners went to a different church simply because of these beliefs about homosexuality. Actually, I also remember that a minister was basically run out of town for anti-war preaching.

Is it any wonder why I see myself as a spiritual person? The last sentence of the service is the only one that truly makes sense: "Go in peace to love and serve the Lord." It doesn't matter who or what you call "Lord".
 
Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Bob Gray said:
to me it's clear that when you stray from what (to me again) is clear Biblical teaching, it's not surprising that people go elsewhere.
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"Clear Biblical teaching" is anything but clear to me.
 
Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

burd said:
"Clear Biblical teaching" is anything but clear to me.
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Clear Biblical Teaching...you know, eating shellfish is a sin, working on the Sabbath is a sin, wearing clothes of two different fibers is a sin, having sex outside of marriage is a sin...

I commit sins on a regular basis.
 
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