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Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?
- Thread starter ExileOnDaytonStreet
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Kepler
Cornell Big Red
Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?
Well, one party has spent the last 30 years hinting about dark government conspiracies and pouring acid on the notion that anybody might have any other aim in life than personal enrichment. I wonder if these are related phenomena?
The decline in respect for, and enforcement of, the rule of law in this nation is one of the most fundamental symptoms of the decay of our society.
Well, one party has spent the last 30 years hinting about dark government conspiracies and pouring acid on the notion that anybody might have any other aim in life than personal enrichment. I wonder if these are related phenomena?
Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?
And even then, that's just one aspect of the decline in respect for and enforcement of the rule of law.
I think you are casting a much too narrow net. Both parties play on fear. There are few at least short-term motivators as strong as fear. Popular culture, from movies to books, to video games, play on fear, conspiracy theories, etc.
And even then, that's just one aspect of the decline in respect for and enforcement of the rule of law.
Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?
And in the absence of the rule of law, the rule of man wins out. That is no way for a free society to exist, when the rules become capricious in line with the whims of whoever happens to be in power - no matter which party is doing it.
Seems like you have to add that last line or else the nimrods get their panties in a bunch, but really it should go without saying.
And in the absence of the rule of law, the rule of man wins out. That is no way for a free society to exist, when the rules become capricious in line with the whims of whoever happens to be in power - no matter which party is doing it.
Seems like you have to add that last line or else the nimrods get their panties in a bunch, but really it should go without saying.
Patman
Rodent of Unusual Size
Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?
He's been on that kick for awhile... he doesn't want Americans being paid to do jobs that Americans won't do for $3.15 an hour.
Ok, that's a different angle on this one. Arguing against policing the border because it would cost money. Hey, while we're at it, why have law enforcement officials at all, getting rid of all of them would save us a heck of a lot of money. And if it's a good idea for the border, it's a good idea away from the border.
And oh, land sakes, there's some politics involved.
He's been on that kick for awhile... he doesn't want Americans being paid to do jobs that Americans won't do for $3.15 an hour.
Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?
There ought to be some way to post this explosion of left wingery somewhere that the Clinton's might run into it. Given that they made out like cat burglars during the "decade of greed." Including the tens of thousands Hillary made with insider help in commodities trading. But hey, why let any consistency leak into the litergy?
There ought to be some way to post this explosion of left wingery somewhere that the Clinton's might run into it. Given that they made out like cat burglars during the "decade of greed." Including the tens of thousands Hillary made with insider help in commodities trading. But hey, why let any consistency leak into the litergy?
Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?
I hope you didn't just use Kepler and consistency in the same thought.
I hope you didn't just use Kepler and consistency in the same thought.
Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?
I'm looking for the part where conservatives gave illegals their undivided attention.
Obama has been in office for a year and a half. Are you telling me that before he came to office there were no problems...and a sudden lack of attention caused everything to explode in just over a year?
In fact, overall government action on illegals was likely much worse under conservatives. Companies being prosecuted for hiring illegals dwindled to just 4 for the year 2003. In 1999, 417 companies were fined...in 2004, just three (WaPo). That's just 3 companies. Thankfully things are turned around again. Over the past year, 2,900 companies were raided...resulting in record fines for hiring illegals.
In short, its not that suddenly illegals are a problem...but just like government spending, conservatives didn't notice until Dems entered office.
I'm looking for the part where conservatives gave illegals their undivided attention. Obama has been in office for a year and a half. Are you telling me that before he came to office there were no problems...and a sudden lack of attention caused everything to explode in just over a year?
In fact, overall government action on illegals was likely much worse under conservatives. Companies being prosecuted for hiring illegals dwindled to just 4 for the year 2003. In 1999, 417 companies were fined...in 2004, just three (WaPo). That's just 3 companies. Thankfully things are turned around again. Over the past year, 2,900 companies were raided...resulting in record fines for hiring illegals.
In short, its not that suddenly illegals are a problem...but just like government spending, conservatives didn't notice until Dems entered office.
Kepler
Cornell Big Red
Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?
Well, doesn't that make for a much less punchy sound bite.
There's always been a strong strain of "you follow the law until you can't stand it anymore, then you react with violence" in popular entertainment. There is the inevitable moment in every 30's or 40's drama where the Good Man, thwarted by bureaucracy or apathy or just long odds, must reluctantly turn to his fists or his gun, and that was the alleged Golden Age of Respect for Law, when the bad guy was never allowed to win ("the weed of crime bears bitter fruit. Crime does not pay"). Aside from stroking machismo, LCD entertainment has always used violence as a dullard's short cut for catharsis.
I don't think the world is descending into chaos any more today than it has been since Hammurabi laid down the law. ("In Mes-o-po-tam-i-a.") It's just that as in every age, as men mature they see how vacuous and violent most popular culture is. (Women are on to it from the beginning; they have different blind spots.)
Well, doesn't that make for a much less punchy sound bite.
There's always been a strong strain of "you follow the law until you can't stand it anymore, then you react with violence" in popular entertainment. There is the inevitable moment in every 30's or 40's drama where the Good Man, thwarted by bureaucracy or apathy or just long odds, must reluctantly turn to his fists or his gun, and that was the alleged Golden Age of Respect for Law, when the bad guy was never allowed to win ("the weed of crime bears bitter fruit. Crime does not pay"). Aside from stroking machismo, LCD entertainment has always used violence as a dullard's short cut for catharsis.
I don't think the world is descending into chaos any more today than it has been since Hammurabi laid down the law. ("In Mes-o-po-tam-i-a.") It's just that as in every age, as men mature they see how vacuous and violent most popular culture is. (Women are on to it from the beginning; they have different blind spots.)
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Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?
It should go without saying. Unfortunately even when you say it, they generally ignore it.
Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?
I'm curious Bob if you think the media and politicians in Arizona, perhaps even nationwide, have also tried to use fear to justify in part their support or passage of Arizona's immigration law.
You've been kind enough to provide links to a lot of good articles about locals who tell their story of the effect on their lives. But I ran across this link from May.
I have to say this article seems much closer to my perceived reality of southern Arizona than do some of the articles that basically suggest there is mayhem in the streets and desert of the southern reaches of that state.
I was in Nogales myself 6 months ago. I also had a chance to see my sister from Tucson this past week and we briefly talked about this issue.
I'm interested in your opinion as to whether you think there has been some use of fear by proponents of the law to "fan the flames" so to speak.
I'm curious Bob if you think the media and politicians in Arizona, perhaps even nationwide, have also tried to use fear to justify in part their support or passage of Arizona's immigration law.
You've been kind enough to provide links to a lot of good articles about locals who tell their story of the effect on their lives. But I ran across this link from May.
I have to say this article seems much closer to my perceived reality of southern Arizona than do some of the articles that basically suggest there is mayhem in the streets and desert of the southern reaches of that state.
I was in Nogales myself 6 months ago. I also had a chance to see my sister from Tucson this past week and we briefly talked about this issue.
I'm interested in your opinion as to whether you think there has been some use of fear by proponents of the law to "fan the flames" so to speak.
Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?
Fair questions.
I've seen several articles similar to the one you link to. I guess it comes down to how you understand the numbers. The old "you can make numbers say whatever you want" bit. I've seen reports that ICE has become numbers focused, so they can show they apprehend a lot of folks, etc., but that focus has hampered their actual effectiveness. I tend to put more stock in the killings that go on, reports of drug cartels regularly stationing people across southern Arizona to track ICE movements, and the feds closing areas to the public and posting more and more warning signs as more tangible evidence of what's going on on the border than someone's number tallies. It's not useless information, but I think the overwhelming evidence that things are getting worse, shown by reports of actual happenings on the border, far outweighs this one piece of information arguing otherwise. I'm guessing that Nogales police officer's perspective has changed a bit since the drug cartels started opening threatening Nogales police with sniper fire if they continue to interfere with drug shipments in the area.
To be honest, a lot of Arizonans rarely if ever get out of the Phoenix and Tucson metro areas where they live, so even a lot of Arizonans don't have first hand experience going down to the border. Because my wife and I are outdoors people and like to hike, we get around the state a lot more than a lot of people do. But we think twice now when we head anywhere near the border, and some areas like much of Organ Pipe, are off limits to the public now.
On fanning the flames, of course proponents of the law fan the flames with fear. No significant public discussion of a major issue in this country (that I can think of) doesn't involve significant fear mongering. Though I'd say in this case, opponents of the law are worse. The things that have been said about Arizona are and what will be done to people here by some opponents is really offensive and insulting and I think there's an aspect that Arizona as a whole is peeved that people simple-mindedly make all sort of bad assertions about Arizona, while knowing little or nothing about the situation. From Obama and Holder not reading the law, but blasting it, to that Milwaukee supervisor calling for a boycott while saying Arizona isn't on the border, there is a lot of information out there indicating that at least a large chunk of the opposition doesn't really know much about the law, but sees it as a great opportunity to push agendas and blast people they already don't like.
Fair questions.
I've seen several articles similar to the one you link to. I guess it comes down to how you understand the numbers. The old "you can make numbers say whatever you want" bit. I've seen reports that ICE has become numbers focused, so they can show they apprehend a lot of folks, etc., but that focus has hampered their actual effectiveness. I tend to put more stock in the killings that go on, reports of drug cartels regularly stationing people across southern Arizona to track ICE movements, and the feds closing areas to the public and posting more and more warning signs as more tangible evidence of what's going on on the border than someone's number tallies. It's not useless information, but I think the overwhelming evidence that things are getting worse, shown by reports of actual happenings on the border, far outweighs this one piece of information arguing otherwise. I'm guessing that Nogales police officer's perspective has changed a bit since the drug cartels started opening threatening Nogales police with sniper fire if they continue to interfere with drug shipments in the area.
To be honest, a lot of Arizonans rarely if ever get out of the Phoenix and Tucson metro areas where they live, so even a lot of Arizonans don't have first hand experience going down to the border. Because my wife and I are outdoors people and like to hike, we get around the state a lot more than a lot of people do. But we think twice now when we head anywhere near the border, and some areas like much of Organ Pipe, are off limits to the public now.
On fanning the flames, of course proponents of the law fan the flames with fear. No significant public discussion of a major issue in this country (that I can think of) doesn't involve significant fear mongering. Though I'd say in this case, opponents of the law are worse. The things that have been said about Arizona are and what will be done to people here by some opponents is really offensive and insulting and I think there's an aspect that Arizona as a whole is peeved that people simple-mindedly make all sort of bad assertions about Arizona, while knowing little or nothing about the situation. From Obama and Holder not reading the law, but blasting it, to that Milwaukee supervisor calling for a boycott while saying Arizona isn't on the border, there is a lot of information out there indicating that at least a large chunk of the opposition doesn't really know much about the law, but sees it as a great opportunity to push agendas and blast people they already don't like.
Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?
Last EPA director got drilled by congress but they couldn't do squat to him. there is power in the executive branch, departments can selectively enforce the rule of law or ignore it or bend it as they choose.
I think the only solution is opening the borders and let all come to the land of the free. It's not fair to green card holders so we probally should give them some type of work visa with less rights. maybe protect business by removing osha/safety/discrimination/labor/minimum wage/overtime etc... so they can use them and pay them anyway they want... for x years till they get normal green card.
Last EPA director got drilled by congress but they couldn't do squat to him. there is power in the executive branch, departments can selectively enforce the rule of law or ignore it or bend it as they choose.
I think the only solution is opening the borders and let all come to the land of the free. It's not fair to green card holders so we probally should give them some type of work visa with less rights. maybe protect business by removing osha/safety/discrimination/labor/minimum wage/overtime etc... so they can use them and pay them anyway they want... for x years till they get normal green card.
Patman
Rodent of Unusual Size
Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?
So what you're telling me is that middle class america should be cosigned to the lower class?
Either that or you have no comprehension of economics.
So what you're telling me is that middle class america should be cosigned to the lower class?
Either that or you have no comprehension of economics.
Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?
we are already there. the richer getting richer and poor getting poorer.
It's all about economics. why illegals come here . why business hire illegals.
we are already there. the richer getting richer and poor getting poorer.
It's all about economics. why illegals come here . why business hire illegals.
WeWantMore
New member
Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?
Interesting piece from George Will on how Puerto Rico could play into the immigration debate:
http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/07/18/1735267/gop-should-support-state-of-puerto.html
What would be the benefit to PR in becoming a state though?
Interesting piece from George Will on how Puerto Rico could play into the immigration debate:
http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/07/18/1735267/gop-should-support-state-of-puerto.html
What would be the benefit to PR in becoming a state though?
Patman
Rodent of Unusual Size
Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?
Things that are already known... upgrades are going to be a large cost... welfare payments will be a lot... and Will only points out these are social-cons... so within a generation they'll forget about the religious stuff and become full on liberals which invalidates the entire column.
The social con platform is not a winner and isn't what's going to get us through this horrible crap of today. I sincerely doubt that the Puerto Rican community at large are on for the other planks of the Republican party on the economic side or on the law enforcement side. They might be on the military side though. Nevertheless, the vital platform is the econ side which is where social conservatives have been more than willing to side with the democrats because they fail to divorce the state from the actions of doing good (in other words, the state becomes their means of doing good... or rather abdicating that they do it themselves).
I think Will's column rather mind-boggling if not ignorant. Sounds like this is one of the columns he punts out to establish his "moderate" cred. I also feel that pandering to racists is not positive for this country.
edit: the main difference between a social-con and a democrat is by and large the moral system employed to accomplish things. They are like liberal republicans in the sense that they look at some manner of the extension of power and say "well, we could do it better"... rarely do they look at it and say "no, we shouldn't do that at all, ever". The social con thinks he can use the power of the state to make it a more moral place... which is functionally inseparable from the dictates of the progressive. It may be short term good for the GOP but it doesn't help the country at large. If you could convince me that the PR Republicans are pro-business and economics then I could say it may be less of a mixed-bag... you still have to deal with the issues of the costs of statehood for PR in terms of increasing the standards.
Things that are already known... upgrades are going to be a large cost... welfare payments will be a lot... and Will only points out these are social-cons... so within a generation they'll forget about the religious stuff and become full on liberals which invalidates the entire column.
The social con platform is not a winner and isn't what's going to get us through this horrible crap of today. I sincerely doubt that the Puerto Rican community at large are on for the other planks of the Republican party on the economic side or on the law enforcement side. They might be on the military side though. Nevertheless, the vital platform is the econ side which is where social conservatives have been more than willing to side with the democrats because they fail to divorce the state from the actions of doing good (in other words, the state becomes their means of doing good... or rather abdicating that they do it themselves).
I think Will's column rather mind-boggling if not ignorant. Sounds like this is one of the columns he punts out to establish his "moderate" cred. I also feel that pandering to racists is not positive for this country.
edit: the main difference between a social-con and a democrat is by and large the moral system employed to accomplish things. They are like liberal republicans in the sense that they look at some manner of the extension of power and say "well, we could do it better"... rarely do they look at it and say "no, we shouldn't do that at all, ever". The social con thinks he can use the power of the state to make it a more moral place... which is functionally inseparable from the dictates of the progressive. It may be short term good for the GOP but it doesn't help the country at large. If you could convince me that the PR Republicans are pro-business and economics then I could say it may be less of a mixed-bag... you still have to deal with the issues of the costs of statehood for PR in terms of increasing the standards.
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Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?
To that end...what does it take to get kicked out of the Tea Party? Evidently quite a bit.
At this rate, the Tea Party will soon go the way of the KKK...and by that I mean largely exinct.
White regional leadership in the Tea Party talking to Pres Lincoln: "We Coloreds have taken a vote and decided that we don't cotton to that whole emancipation thing. Freedom means having to work for real, think for ourselves, and take consequences along with the rewards. That is just far too much to ask of us Colored People and we demand that it stop!
"Please repeal the 13th and 14th Amendments and let us get back to where we belong."
"How will we Colored People ever get a wide screen TV in every room if non-coloreds get to keep what they earn? .. Bailouts are just big money welfare and isn't that what we want all Coloreds to strive for?"
Everyone likes efficient govt...but social conservatives are just waiting to jump out of the cake.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/pol...over_colored_people_letter.html#ixzz0s5xWAC3h
To that end...what does it take to get kicked out of the Tea Party? Evidently quite a bit.
At this rate, the Tea Party will soon go the way of the KKK...and by that I mean largely exinct.
White regional leadership in the Tea Party talking to Pres Lincoln: "We Coloreds have taken a vote and decided that we don't cotton to that whole emancipation thing. Freedom means having to work for real, think for ourselves, and take consequences along with the rewards. That is just far too much to ask of us Colored People and we demand that it stop!
"Please repeal the 13th and 14th Amendments and let us get back to where we belong."
"How will we Colored People ever get a wide screen TV in every room if non-coloreds get to keep what they earn? .. Bailouts are just big money welfare and isn't that what we want all Coloreds to strive for?"
Everyone likes efficient govt...but social conservatives are just waiting to jump out of the cake.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/pol...over_colored_people_letter.html#ixzz0s5xWAC3h
Patman
Rodent of Unusual Size
Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?
Quite unrelated to what was written, but whatever.
Yes, what is written there is clearly disgusting and I'm not even sure what he was trying to get at by penning that. Its unsurprising that racists would co-op groups for their own ends... they've been doing it right along. Somebody goes out and effectively say "hey, free microphones" and these scumbags find their way over.
So with that in mind, tell me, which part of the anti-spending is racist? Which part of anti-bailout mentality is racist? Which parts of limiting social welfare to spur people to become self-sufficient is racist?
Now, if you wanted to quote the part about the racist proclivities of Hispanics as it comes to the border and other issues then maybe that'd be appropriate. Granted, being pro-immigration because it would help those people who crossed in from Mexico and Latin America is racist in itself.... but I could see maybe where you are coming from.
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the social conservatives see no problem in the expansion of spending of the state... which is what I'm getting at. The problem right now in this country is the expansion and spending of the state. There's also a problem in that unemployment is high and the ability of the private industry to produce is being hindered by the state of government. Social conservatives have no interest in these issues.
The Tea Party is about the issues of the state and its spending. If you want to ignore them I'll invite you to do so... you seem comfortable in this.
Quite unrelated to what was written, but whatever.
Yes, what is written there is clearly disgusting and I'm not even sure what he was trying to get at by penning that. Its unsurprising that racists would co-op groups for their own ends... they've been doing it right along. Somebody goes out and effectively say "hey, free microphones" and these scumbags find their way over.
So with that in mind, tell me, which part of the anti-spending is racist? Which part of anti-bailout mentality is racist? Which parts of limiting social welfare to spur people to become self-sufficient is racist?
Now, if you wanted to quote the part about the racist proclivities of Hispanics as it comes to the border and other issues then maybe that'd be appropriate. Granted, being pro-immigration because it would help those people who crossed in from Mexico and Latin America is racist in itself.... but I could see maybe where you are coming from.
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the social conservatives see no problem in the expansion of spending of the state... which is what I'm getting at. The problem right now in this country is the expansion and spending of the state. There's also a problem in that unemployment is high and the ability of the private industry to produce is being hindered by the state of government. Social conservatives have no interest in these issues.
The Tea Party is about the issues of the state and its spending. If you want to ignore them I'll invite you to do so... you seem comfortable in this.
WeWantMore
New member
Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?
Say what? This guy was a racist clown, and got kicked out. What does that prove though?
Say what? This guy was a racist clown, and got kicked out. What does that prove though?
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