Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

[5mn_Major]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Those are interesting numbers, no doubt about it. What I'd say it tells you though is that there's a lot of people out there who are casual fiscal conservatives, that claim the mantle when asked if they are by a poll, but aren't in a meaningful way. I'm sure if you lined up all the general conservatives, they'd all say they were fiscal conservatives also, although of course the level of interest/commitment many of them have to push fiscal conservancy is minimal at best. So, interesting numbers, but they aren't exactly defining.

Dunno. They kind of are defining. Again just having 25% or so disapproving of performance really is extremely low by any standard. And what makes these numbers even more dramatic is that they're going against a huge headwind of the clear perspective we had by 2008 of just what kind of spending just happened and widespread general sentiment against Bush.

And if you look at the underlying ABC story, it shows widespread concern about spending/deficits. If there was widespread concern, it's illogical to think that somehow fiscal conservatives weren't a part of that widespread concern, let alone probably leading the charge.

There was absolutely huge concern. But self proclaimed fiscal conservatives still overwhelmingly supported Bush. That's the problem we're talking about here. Its not a sign that these 'fiscal conservatives' were somehow not represented in the numbers, because the numbers are there. Its a sign that they are willing to drop their self proclaimed number one priority...and in the case of supporting Bush, very quickly and without much merit.

It's also illogical to expect "fiscal conservatism" to have been a primary concern of conservatives in 2002 or 2004.

The poll is from 2008...and when the economy was relatively fine. Again, a driving reason for an increased deficit today is stimulating the economy (many of the brightest economic minds out there believe this is a key to fixing the economy). Spending until 2008? No good reason.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

So a 10 trillion dollar debt is okay but a 13 trillion dollar one isn't? Is the RNC paying you for your posts?

Did I use the word "debt" in my post? No, I did not.

Maybe I can get the RNC to cough up for some reading comprehension classes for you.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

If general conservatives are more concerned in particular about fiscal conservatism today, that could very well be a rational, reasoned, informed, response to the changing economic conditions rather than exhibit A that they're all a bunch of disingenuous hypocrites.

These people exist -- many of them aren't even hypocritical. Their philosophy is wrongheaded and based on rather obviously erroneous axioms, but they exist.

 

[Rover]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Did I use the word "debt" in my post? No, I did not.

Maybe I can get the RNC to cough up for some reading comprehension classes for you.

Because clearly debt and deficits aren't related. I think the RNC needs to pay for some biz school classes for you.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Dunno. They kind of are defining. Again just having 25% or so disapproving of performance really is extremely low by any standard. And what makes these numbers even more dramatic is that they're going against a huge headwind of the clear perspective we had by 2008 of just what kind of spending just happened and widespread general sentiment against Bush.

There was absolutely huge concern. But self proclaimed fiscal conservatives still overwhelmingly supported Bush. That's the problem we're talking about here. Its not a sign that these 'fiscal conservatives' were somehow not represented in the numbers, because the numbers are there. Its a sign that they are willing to drop their self proclaimed number one priority...and in the case of supporting Bush, very quickly and without much merit.

The poll is from 2008...and when the economy was relatively fine. Again, a driving reason for an increased deficit today is stimulating the economy (many of the brightest economic minds out there believe this is a key to fixing the economy). Spending until 2008? No good reason.

The quote I took is from the poll linked in the article you posted. I didn't pull that from nowhere, it's the link in your very article.

Again, I see nuance is lost here. I won't explain once again for you.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

So a 10 trillion dollar debt is okay but a 13 trillion dollar one isn't? Is the RNC paying you for your posts?

Actually the debt was in the $6 to $7 trillion range in the 2002-2004 period Lynah cited. Still awful, but not $10 trillion. And the rate of escalation during the Bush years was frightening, but the rate of escalation during the Obama years so far has been beyond frightening. You lose a lot of credibility by always throwing this back as a Republican thing. It's bipartisan.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Actually the debt was in the $6 to $7 trillion range in the 2002-2004 period Lynah cited. Still awful, but not $10 trillion. And the rate of escalation during the Bush years was frightening, but the rate of escalation during the Obama years so far has been beyond frightening. You lose a lot of credibility by always throwing this back as a Republican thing. It's bipartisan.

He had credibility?

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Because clearly debt and deficits aren't related. I think the RNC needs to pay for some biz school classes for you.

Again with the reading comprehension. Where did I say that they were not related?

I've always liked the saying, "the place you start from is not nearly as important as the direction you are headed." The debt is your starting point and the deficit is your direction. A $100T debt wouldn't scare me at all if we were paying off $2T per year - in that example, the "2" is a whole lot more important than the "100," even though it's 50x smaller.

This is why deficits scare me, but debt alone (in the absence of deficits) does not.

I think you need to pay for..something....

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

He had credibility?

Touche.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Actually the debt was in the $6 to $7 trillion range in the 2002-2004 period Lynah cited. Still awful, but not $10 trillion. And the rate of escalation during the Bush years was frightening, but the rate of escalation during the Obama years so far has been beyond frightening. You lose a lot of credibility by always throwing this back as a Republican thing. It's bipartisan.

Although I agree with you that Obama has done a rotten job the Bush administration is responsible for starting the snowball down the hill.

When Bush took office the budget was under control. When Bush left office the budget was out of control. When Bush took office he whined about the recession he inherited incessantly. When Bush left office he left Obama with the second worst fiscal crisis in US history.

Making excuses for what the Republicans did during those 8 years is old and tired. And having the same folks who championed him into office TWICE crying foul now is comical.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

The quote I took is from the poll linked in the article you posted. I didn't pull that from nowhere, it's the link in your very article.

Again, I see nuance is lost here. I won't explain once again for you.

Wasn't commenting on the quote. But, one could argue that disapproval of financial and auto bailouts was a function of 'flushing money down a losing industry' or 'paying off fatcats who just scammed us' rather than an admiration of small government.

Again the problem is not that many were against bailouts and spending later...but that the same group didn't seem to have the same fiscal prudence when the GOP was running the show and supported Bush heavily for years. And in this case we know it was so called fiscal conservatives that gave support cause they told us so in the poll. Its consistency and credibility of conviction of fiscal conservatism that we're questioning here.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Although I agree with you that Obama has done a rotten job the Bush administration is responsible for starting the snowball down the hill.

When Bush took office the budget was under control. When Bush left office the budget was out of control. When Bush took office he whined about the recession he inherited incessantly. When Bush left office he left Obama with the second worst fiscal crisis in US history.

Making excuses for what the Republicans did during those 8 years is old and tired. And having the same folks who championed him into office TWICE crying foul now is comical.

When does this become Obama's problem?

Paul Krugman's school of thought: My arm is bleeding, better chop off a leg to stop the arm from bleeding.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

When does this become Obama's problem?

Paul Krugman's school of thought: My arm is bleeding, better chop off a leg to stop the arm from bleeding.

I didn't say it wasn't Obama's problem. It is his problem. And he's doing a rotten job fixing it.

But, it's Bush's fault. You could argue that it's Bush's fault that Obama got elected. And quite frankly I'm shocked anyone is shocked that this is the result of a no experience President.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Although I agree with you that Obama has done a rotten job the Bush administration is responsible for starting the snowball down the hill.

When Bush took office the budget was under control. When Bush left office the budget was out of control. When Bush took office he whined about the recession he inherited incessantly. When Bush left office he left Obama with the second worst fiscal crisis in US history.

Making excuses for what the Republicans did during those 8 years is old and tired. And having the same folks who championed him into office TWICE crying foul now is comical.

And what part of me blasting Bush for years about fiscal irresponsibility have you missed? Apparently all of it, including numerous times in this thread.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Wasn't commenting on the quote. But, one could argue that disapproval of financial and auto bailouts was a function of 'flushing money down a losing industry' or 'paying off fatcats who just scammed us' rather than an admiration of small government.

Again the problem is not that many were against bailouts and spending later...but that the same group didn't seem to have the same fiscal prudence when the GOP was running the show and supported Bush heavily for years. And in this case we know it was so called fiscal conservatives that gave support cause they told us so in the poll. Its consistency and credibility of conviction of fiscal conservatism that we're questioning here.

But the quote is directly from the link in your article. I didn't go looking for it, it. It was the basis for the article you're going on and on about. And you just claimed there weren't fiscal problems at the time. Get your ducks in order please.

And again, I'm not going to explain the issue about fiscal conservatives and the article again, as I already did so and you ignored it.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

I didn't say it wasn't Obama's problem. It is his problem. And he's doing a rotten job fixing it.

But, it's Bush's fault. You could argue that it's Bush's fault that Obama got elected. And quite frankly I'm shocked anyone is shocked that this is the result of a no experience President.

So they both have been fiscally disastrous. I'm on board with that prognosis.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

So they both have been fiscally disastrous. I'm on board with that prognosis.

Ditto. Except now Obama's in office and he's the man holding the bone saw.

Bush sucked *** fiscally, but Obama's had nearly two years to get things back on track. I'm not saying completely fix it, but get things back on track. He hasn't.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Ditto. Except now Obama's in office and he's the man holding the bone saw.

Bush sucked *** fiscally, but Obama's had nearly two years to get things back on track. I'm not saying completely fix it, but get things back on track. He hasn't.

Agreed.

You always get the most heat when you're the one holding the bag at the moment.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Ditto. Except now Obama's in office and he's the man holding the bone saw.

Bush sucked *** fiscally, but Obama's had nearly two years to get things back on track. I'm not saying completely fix it, but get things back on track. He hasn't.

True, but you're missing the difference.

Bush came into office with everything under control. He could have and passed on passing legislation to really get things moving in the right direction.

When Obama came into office he came into a situation that was completely foreign to the United States. He took his best shot using the same failed left policies of the past and he failed.

Apples and Oranges to compare the two. That's what gets me upset. When people say everything is so much worse under Obama it fails to acknowledge that he inherited an impossible problem from a man who came into office with a pretty clean slate to work with.

Now that the Feds have failed again it will be up to American business to bail us out. Unfortunately that ain't happening too fast. It was a huge hole.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

True, but you're missing the difference.

Bush came into office with everything under control. He could have and passed on passing legislation to really get things moving in the right direction.

When Obama came into office he came into a situation that was completely foreign to the United States. He took his best shot using the same failed left policies of the past and he failed.

Apples and Oranges to compare the two. That's what gets me upset. When people say everything is so much worse under Obama it fails to acknowledge that he inherited an impossible problem from a man who came into office with a pretty clean slate to work with.

Now that the Feds have failed again it will be up to American business to bail us out. Unfortunately that ain't happening too fast. It was a huge hole.

Bush came into office with the tech bubble bursting. I don't think I'd call that under control. Not nearly as bad as what obama had. But you really need to stop excusing this **** poor job obama has done. You don't excuse bad behavior by bad behavior.

When has the american business not led the recovery? Because I'll tell you what, it wasn't in any of our lifetimes.