Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

The leading candidate for governor in the state of Tamaulipas is murdered by the drug cartels. As one of the newspapers is quoted as saying down there "Organized crime has voted."

And it's being done by former special forces troops in Mexico, the Zetas, who flipped to the drug cartel side of things in the 90s. The article doesn't say it, but I believe they were trained by the U.S.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/06/29/20100629mexico-election-candidate-funeral.html

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

The leading candidate for governor in the state of Tamaulipas is murdered by the drug cartels. As one of the newspapers is quoted as saying down there "Organized crime has voted."

And it's being done by former special forces troops in Mexico, the Zetas, who flipped to the drug cartel side of things in the 90s. The article doesn't say it, but I believe they were trained by the U.S.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/06/29/20100629mexico-election-candidate-funeral.html

Gee, that's never happened before. This country (US) is sure obsessed with repeating history. Must be that fine education system we have.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Gee, that's never happened before. This country (US) is sure obsessed with repeating history. Must be that fine education system we have.

The article isn't about the U.S. or education.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

The article isn't about the U.S. or education.

I didn't read the article. You posted that the US trained the drug cartel sided Zeta troops who assassinated the candidate.

The US also trained the Taliban.

It's getting just a little silly, don't you think?

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

If the drug cartels are terrorists, and if they now have de facto control of Mexico, at what point is the flow of people from Mexico who are not cartel members (I'm assuming not everyone who jumps the fence or swims the river is a member of the cartel) identified not as an immigration issue but a human rights issue similar to what we saw in eastern europe and africa in the last 20 years?

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

I didn't read the article. You posted that the US trained the drug cartel sided Zeta troops who assassinated the candidate.

The US also trained the Taliban.

It's getting just a little silly, don't you think?

I think that's a nice effort to divert from the point of the article. Really, if it wasn't the Zetas, it'd be one of the other drug cartels down there, as they all seem to do this stuff whenever it suits them.

Of course nobody likes that someone the U.S. trains may someday turn against our interests, but we don't live in a perfect world, so it's really neither here nor there. We train all sorts of folks who don't go bad, so I guess you'd just not ever train anyone?

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

I think that's a nice effort to divert from the point of the article. Really, if it wasn't the Zetas, it'd be one of the other drug cartels down there, as they all seem to do this stuff whenever it suits them.

Of course nobody likes that someone the U.S. trains may someday turn against our interests, but we don't live in a perfect world, so it's really neither here nor there. We train all sorts of folks who don't go bad, so I guess you'd just not ever train anyone?

No, he'd only train the GOOD ones. Duh.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

No, he'd only train the GOOD ones. Duh.

Why didn't I think of that?

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

If the drug cartels are terrorists, and if they now have de facto control of Mexico, at what point is the flow of people from Mexico who are not cartel members (I'm assuming not everyone who jumps the fence or swims the river is a member of the cartel) identified not as an immigration issue but a human rights issue similar to what we saw in eastern europe and africa in the last 20 years?

Kind of grasping at straws now, aren't you? How many different excuses are you going to use every time one of them gets shot down?

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Kind of grasping at straws now, aren't you? How many different excuses are you going to use every time one of them gets shot down?

I'm not grasping at anything. If a country is being run by thugs with guns, financed by drugs, diamonds or whatever, and if you see an ever increasing flow of people fleeing those conditions, sooner or later that is going to be characterized as a human rights issue. This is currently a hot story in Mexico and portions of the U.S., but sooner or later someone is going to make the case world wide. I simply posed the question at what point?

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

I'm not grasping at anything. If a country is being run by thugs with guns, financed by drugs, diamonds or whatever, and if you see an ever increasing flow of people fleeing those conditions, sooner or later that is going to be characterized as a human rights issue. This is currently a hot story in Mexico and portions of the U.S., but sooner or later someone is going to make the case world wide. I simply posed the question at what point?

If we took that approach, we'd be welcoming hundreds of millions of people from all over the world. We've already taken in, what, 20 million Mexicans, albeit illegally. How about Europe takes half that many? Even in human rights situations, there are practical limits on what can be done. In Mexico's case, the drug cartels don't want to run the country, just have enough influence that they can do what they want.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

If we took that approach, we'd be welcoming hundreds of millions of people from all over the world. We've already taken in, what, 20 million Mexicans, albeit illegally. How about Europe takes half that many? Even in human rights situations, there are practical limits on what can be done. In Mexico's case, the drug cartels don't want to run the country, just have enough influence that they can do what they want.

I don't think it's ever a practical solution to just have the persecuted leave a country to the bad guys. I'm just wondering if things continue to progress we won't see efforts world wide, perhaps through the UN, to go to Mexico and tell Calderon either get a handle on this, or something else will have to be done.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

I'm not grasping at anything.

Of course you are. Every time we debunk your reasonings, you go looking for a new reasoning. That's what's meant by the saying "grasping at straws."

If a country is being run by thugs with guns, financed by drugs,

Clearly, you want an open border with that country. No questions asked.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Just to elaborate a little more.

We've seen many examples of people fleeing countries these past decades. Usually it's some form of civil war, genocide, ethnic cleansing, etc..., that precipitates it. As the warring factions battle it out, killing innocent civilians in the process, the law-abiding majority decides enough is enough, packs up their crap and hits the road.

I've never lived in a country that neighbors one of those areas, but I expect the natural reaction of neighboring countries is horror at the site of hundreds of thousands of refugees coming across their borders. In fact, I expect the reaction is not substantially different than what we see in the U.S. today regarding the Mexican border.

The rest of us have a choice to make. Ignore the problem is an option. Give the refugees a place to live is another. A third is some sort of concerted effort to resolve the "problem" in their home country, permitting them to return.

I don't think it takes much imagination to picture Mexico going that route if things continue as Bob's articles describe. At that point it goes from being a U.S. security or immigration problem to something much bigger.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Then you allow them to apply for refugee status like any other country. You don't leave the border wide open for them to cross with impunity. This isn't rocket science.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

I don't think it's ever a practical solution to just have the persecuted leave a country to the bad guys. I'm just wondering if things continue to progress we won't see efforts world wide, perhaps through the UN, to go to Mexico and tell Calderon either get a handle on this, or something else will have to be done.

The U.N. is too busy moaning about Arizona to notice countries with massive problems like Mexico. It's not like there aren't a good number of other countries around the world that have been even worse messes than Mexico, and the U.N. has done little or nothing.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

The U.N. is too busy moaning about Arizona to notice countries with massive problems like Mexico. It's not like there aren't a good number of other countries around the world that have been even worse messes than Mexico, and the U.N. has done little or nothing.

No question you're right about that. Also, don't get me wrong. Waiting or hoping for the UN to do something is absolutely pointless. It just occurred to me as I read all of articles you linked to that as Mexico degenerates into a lawless state in which the government literally has no control, it certainly slides closer to what we've seen in recent years in some African countries. There does come a point where we have to evaluate to what extent we as a country can help resolve the problem, as opposed to simply putting troops at the border and declaring, "not in my back yard."

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

No question you're right about that. Also, don't get me wrong. Waiting or hoping for the UN to do something is absolutely pointless. It just occurred to me as I read all of articles you linked to that as Mexico degenerates into a lawless state in which the government literally has no control, it certainly slides closer to what we've seen in recent years in some African countries. There does come a point where we have to evaluate to what extent we as a country can help resolve the problem, as opposed to simply putting troops at the border and declaring, "not in my back yard."

You certainly make a valid point that, to the extent Mexico slides further into lawlessness, that it presents bigger picture issues than just an out of control border.

But, I think if the drug cartels win in this battle against the government crackdown in Mexico, it's likely to revert back to a Mexican government that is less confrontational toward the drug cartels and more tolerant. In that case, Mexico wouldn't descend into anarchy, but its government's acquiescance would present some different problems than the current situation, where at least to some extent the government is confronting the drug cartels.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Mexico is simply evolving into a libertarian state.

 

[Slap Shot]

I really think you guys need to go read up on Pablo Escobar.

I'm telling you, the only difference between a "terrorist" and a cartel is pushing an idea or a product.

That doesn't mean you can't take different approaches to getting rid of them.

Escobar gave up on political influence very early on. His targets had far, far more to do with revenge and militaristic might than political influence. That he was allowed to "imprison" himself was the result of bribes, not violence.