Harvard Women's Hockey 2011-2012: Taking the Next Step

[dave1381]

Where I was going with this question was as follows: Harvard played a schedule heavy with TUC teams (Minnesota, Cornell, SLU, Dartmouth) earlier in the season with poor results. In the month of February, they have only BC as a TUC team that they can beat and help themselves to a better ranking in the Pairwise. Otherwise, it's wait until the playoffs and hope you draw some combination of SLU, Dartmouth, Clarkson and Cornell for the semis and finals to give yourself a chance at an NCAA bid. Of course, if they win the ECAC tournament, it becomes a moot point because of the autobid. Failing that, all they have to rely on is beating BC and seeing one of the aforementioned teams in the playoffs. Meanwhile, teams like Mercyhurst, North Dakota and UMD get to play a schedule where they have more opportunities to beat TUC teams. So my question was more around does Harvard get penalized because of the conference they play in and their final month schedule as opposed to a BC or UMD that will in all likelihood face more TUC teams in this final month and have more chances to move up in the rankings?

Ok. Well Harvard has a 5-5 record against TUC at the moment. Having a .500 record vs. TUC is good enough to be middle of the pack and want to be 6th or 7th seed.

Problem is if BU knocks out SLU or Clarkson (who Harvard swept) from the top 12 then the TUC record becomes 3-6 instead of 5-5 going into tonight's game, and that puts Harvard in worse shape.

You ask if Harvard is at a disadvantage with fewer opportunities. Opportunities can actually be bad in this criterion if they're against really good teams: that's why a school like North Dakota presently fares poorly, because they've played Wisconsin 4 times. Ideally you want more games against the bottom half of the top 12 than the top half. At the moment Harvard has 4 games against the top half and 5 or 6 against the bottom half, so their TUC record is probably about on par with their overall ranking, whereas the Sioux look worse than they actually are, and some schools look better than they actually are.

 

[dave1381]

Re: Harvard Women's Hockey 2011-2012: Taking the Next Step

Suddenly it's a three-game losing streak and four-game winless streak for Harvard in Beanpot games.

I wonder if they could play the February Princeton game in December like the men do.

 

[Skate79]

Re: Harvard Women's Hockey 2011-2012: Taking the Next Step

Suddenly it's a three-game losing streak and four-game winless streak for Harvard in Beanpot games.

I wonder if they could play the February Princeton game in December like the men do.

Not sure I understand your reasoning here unless you are referring to the possibility of one less game last weekend giving Harvard more of a breather between Beanpot games??

Disappointing result from Walter Brown. One for eight on the PP really hurt. Harvard had a real chance to improve their Pairwise standing. Now it looks as though they'll have to do it in the ECAC tournament and possibly win it to advance to the NCAAs.

 

[dave1381]

Re: Harvard Women's Hockey 2011-2012: Taking the Next Step

True, the Beanpot was a wasted opportunity, but it was far from a must game for NCAAs. I think we're probably looking at a situation like last year where an ECAC semifinal decides an NCAA berth.

Making things easier for Harvard is if BU reverts to its prior mediocrity and finishes outside the top 12 (though looks that's not going to happen)

 

[Skate79]

Re: Harvard Women's Hockey 2011-2012: Taking the Next Step

Just saw the highlights from tonight's game. Looked like Harvard had some wide open looks at the RPI goalie. Great game for Marissa Gedman. I really felt going into tonight that this would be the toughest game remaining on Harvard's schedule. They should take care of business tomorrow against Union and then sweep Senior Weekend with Brown and Yale coming to town. That would lock up second place and a possible return date with Princeton.

 

[Skate79]

Re: Harvard Women's Hockey 2011-2012: Taking the Next Step

As this is Senior Weekend, I wanted to acknowledge our lone senior this year Alyssa Baumgartner. I met her after the horrible loss to RPI in the ECAC semis in '09 and she was both disappointed obviously with the game but also excited to be in Cambridge. Her career has had its ups and downs and for a while this year, I wasn't sure she was going to play. But she has managed to skate a regular shift and everyone I talk to really likes her and is pulling for her. It would only be fitting if she somehow scored a key goal or two in the coming weeks leading Harvard to another NCAA berth. Congrats Alyssa. Best wishes in your future endeavors.

 

[Skate79]

Re: Harvard Women's Hockey 2011-2012: Taking the Next Step

Strange game at Bright tonight. Looking at the score, one might conclude it was a skate in the park with relative ease. And for the most part it was. But there were some trying moments and frustration at not being able to execute offensively (yes even with five goals) by completing passes inside the Brown zone. Much of that had to do with Brown's ability to clog the middle of the ice inside their zone and force Harvard to stay by the boards. Harvard really didn't create much in the way of offensive chances directly in front of the Brown goalie and at least three of their goals came on screen shots from the point (Sarah Edney) or a rebound off a screened shot (Spurling).

The two Harvard goals that did come on direct rushes were a result of tape to tape passes that did connect and sprung Jillian Dempsey on a breakaway (another gorgeous move and stuff) and a power move by Lyndsey Fry who bulled her way past a Brown D and slipped the puck five hole past the goalie. Brown offered little resistance offensively having great difficulty in generating quality chances until the third period. Try as they might, even the refs who were brutal tonight couldn't help the Lady Bears. Brown's defensive game plan was good; they just didn't have the skill up front to compete with Harvard. But they are getting better.

Laura Bellamy must have been bored silly by the third period due to a lack of action because she somewhat whiffed on the Brown PP goal and almost botched a floater that slipped by her and rang off the post. Hope that she plays a bit better tomorrow.

Saw the Yale-Dartmouth score from Hanover and I can just imagine what that bus ride from New Hampshire to Cambridge will be like. It will be interesting to see how Yale plays it tomorrow. Nothing to play for and they may have already mailed it in. With Cornell beating Clarkson tonight, Harvard has clinched second place and home ice through the semifinal round. Just hope the Crimson come up with crisper passing and more motion in the offensive zone tomorrow. It would be easy for them to be complacent but there is Pairwise to consider.

 

[pakidnyc]

With Cornell beating Clarkson tonight, Harvard has clinched second place and home ice through the semifinal round. Just hope the Crimson come up with crisper passing and more motion in the offensive zone tomorrow. It would be easy for them to be complacent but there is Pairwise to consider.

Won't the ECAC semi finals be held at Cornell?

 

[alslammerz]

Re: Harvard Women's Hockey 2011-2012: Taking the Next Step

Won't the ECAC semi finals be held at Cornell?

One of them (presumably) will be. They switched the format to have both semifinals at the host of the top two seeds remaining, rather than the top seed hosting the final four. Top seed remaining hosts the championship after that.

 

[D2D]

Re: Harvard Women's Hockey 2011-2012: Taking the Next Step

Strong Harvard Presence on U.S. Women’s National Hockey Team’s Pre-IIHF World Championship Roster

http://www.gocrimson.com/sports/wice/2011-12/releases/IHW120216IIHFPrelimRoster

 

[pakidnyc]

One of them (presumably) will be. They switched the format to have both semifinals at the host of the top two seeds remaining, rather than the top seed hosting the final four. Top seed remaining hosts the championship after that.

Sorry, I meant if Cornell won the qrtrs. I didn't realize the change. But, these 1 game semis/finals are held the same weekend, correct? So, hypothetically, Harvard and Cornell advance....Harvard has to jump in their bus after their semi-final game the next morning?

 

[Skate79]

Re: Harvard Women's Hockey 2011-2012: Taking the Next Step

One of them (presumably) will be. They switched the format to have both semifinals at the host of the top two seeds remaining, rather than the top seed hosting the final four. Top seed remaining hosts the championship after that.

This is important for Harvard for a couple of different reasons. If the Crimson advance to the semis, they in all likelihood will face either Clarkson, SLU or Dartmouth in that order (depending on the outcome of today's games of course and assuming a combo of that grouping advances past the quarters). Beating Clarkson or SLU will help in the Pairwise and gets the Crimson to the final. If Cornell wins their semi, Harvard has a chance to lock up an NCAA bid by winning the tournament in Ithaca or if Cornell loses in the semis, at Bright against whoever beat them. The difference being that beating Cornell would have greater significance in the Pairwise and might even get Harvard a home ice seed for the NCAA quarters. I realize that seems like a big stretch but as of now, Harvard v UND in the Pairwise is looking up for the Crimson and a win over Cornell has to boost that considerably.

 

[Skate79]

Re: Harvard Women's Hockey 2011-2012: Taking the Next Step

Sorry, I meant if Cornell won the qrtrs. I didn't realize the change. But, these 1 game semis/finals are held the same weekend, correct? So, hypothetically, Harvard and Cornell advance....Harvard has to jump in their bus after their semi-final game the next morning?

The semis are held on Thursday March 1st I believe at campus locations and the finals are held on Saturday to allow for the remaining teams to figure out where they are going or not going. In my most recent post, I shared a scenario whereby if Cornell and Harvard win their semis, the Crimson leave Friday for Ithaca and play the Big Red on Saturday afternoon. If Cornell loses and Harvard wins in the semis, Harvard stays home and hosts the team that beat Cornell. If both Harvard and Cornell lose their semifinal games, the highest remaining seed will host the final. Impossible to tell who that might be at this point. But I think you get my drift and yes, there has to be some time between the semis and final to determine where exactly it will be held. Tough for the schools involved because it also means last minute marketing to try and attract fans to the final especially if they were not expecting to host.

 

[dave1381]

Re: Harvard Women's Hockey 2011-2012: Taking the Next Step

Tough for the schools involved because it also means last minute marketing to try and attract fans to the final especially if they were not expecting to host.

Sure, but I think it's better than the alternative at this point.

So last two years, the No. 1 seed Cornell won, was "expected to host" in that sense, and got good attendance for its playoff games. We haven't yet had that situation where the No. 2 or 3 semifinal team ends up hosting unexpectedly.

But for the prior system, when the No. 1 seed hosted the semis and finals, championship attendance has been a disaster when the No. 1 seed lost. At least with the "last-minute marketing" in the new system there is some hope for good championship game attendance.
2009 - Dartmouth vs. RPI @ Harvard - 398
2006 - Harvard vs. Brown @ SLU - 408
Also, ECAC neutral site attendances where the host team missed the final have been lousy
2005 - Harvard vs. Dartmouth @ Union - 402
2004 - Harvard vs. SLU @ Union - 713
2003 - Harvard vs. Dartmouth @ Brown - 659
There's one exception:
1999 - Harvard vs. UNH @ Brown - 1710

 

[Skate79]

Re: Harvard Women's Hockey 2011-2012: Taking the Next Step

Sure, but I think it's better than the alternative at this point.

So last two years, the No. 1 seed Cornell won, was "expected to host" in that sense, and got good attendance for its playoff games. We haven't yet had that situation where the No. 2 or 3 semifinal team ends up hosting unexpectedly.

But for the prior system, when the No. 1 seed hosted the semis and finals, championship attendance has been a disaster when the No. 1 seed lost. At least with the "last-minute marketing" in the new system there is some hope for good championship game attendance.
2009 - Dartmouth vs. RPI @ Harvard - 398
2006 - Harvard vs. Brown @ SLU - 408
Also, ECAC neutral site attendances where the host team missed the final have been lousy
2005 - Harvard vs. Dartmouth @ Union - 402
2004 - Harvard vs. SLU @ Union - 713
2003 - Harvard vs. Dartmouth @ Brown - 659
There's one exception:
1999 - Harvard vs. UNH @ Brown - 1710

As usual Dave, spot on. I was there for the Harvard v UNH final at Brown in '99. My feeling about that was twofold; first the excitement generated on the Harvard campus of having a team in a tournament final and second, coming off a hugely successful Olympic tournament the year before, AJ Mlezcko was a magnet for fans much like Jeremy Lin is doing for the Knicks presently. AJ got great press during the Olympics and the Globe kept writing articles about her during the season. It wasn't all that surprising to see the number of fans there.

Regarding the other years you mention here, I can't comment really except to say I'm disappointed that women's hockey has not caught on in greater numbers. Harvard fans just don't travel well; I can't speak for other schools. Has the ECAC experimented with or discussed other formulas for increasing attendance? Are they fearful that a neutral site that doesn't involve a campus (aka Bridgeport or Hartford or Albany) will fail just as badly?

 

[dave1381]

Re: Harvard Women's Hockey 2011-2012: Taking the Next Step

Sure, I'm disappointed too. In most places, you get a big spike in attendance when the team first gets to be good, then the teams don't sustain it so much. Maybe Wisconsin is an exception and Wisconsin is able to do this in part because of continued success. Harvard still got some crowds for Dartmouth in the 1700-2000 ragne in Angela's last two years.

I'm not interested in the ECAC trying neutral sites again any time soon. Part of the appeal of the Union experiment I think was to have that be a regular location like Albany for the men. The first time they thought it'd be good to have it same weekend as the men's championship in Albany, and it was a disappointment. Then in 2005 it wasn't the same week and attendance was even worse.

For now I just hope these teams can build some interest on campus. Then you can eventually grow to a neutral site situation. Like NCAA women's basketball didn't go neutral site for the first two rounds of its tournament until the last decade.

 

[DC78-82]

Re: Harvard Women's Hockey 2011-2012: Taking the Next Step

Sure, I'm disappointed too. In most places, you get a big spike in attendance when the team first gets to be good, then the teams don't sustain it so much. Maybe Wisconsin is an exception and Wisconsin is able to do this in part because of continued success. Harvard still got some crowds for Dartmouth in the 1700-2000 ragne in Angela's last two years.

I'm not interested in the ECAC trying neutral sites again any time soon. Part of the appeal of the Union experiment I think was to have that be a regular location like Albany for the men. The first time they thought it'd be good to have it same weekend as the men's championship in Albany, and it was a disappointment. Then in 2005 it wasn't the same week and attendance was even worse.

For now I just hope these teams can build some interest on campus. Then you can eventually grow to a neutral site situation. Like NCAA women's basketball didn't go neutral site for the first two rounds of its tournament until the last decade.

Wisco has the advantage of 1) being really good consistently, 2) being on a campus with beau coup students, 3) being from a place where college sports rule (same for Minny, plus the added bonus of a large women's hockey following at the youth/high school level.)

Obviously there is a different mindset towards college sports in the East, particularly in the urban campus areas where pro sports predominate the culture and media. Also, I think the availability of webcasts has contributed to the smaller attendance figures in the east, especially reducing the numbers of fans who travel to their team's away events. In the case of those great Harvard-Dartmouth games of the mid-decade, there was a good deal of press, including a large Globe article that gave a big boost in '04 (IIRC). Without regular press coverage it is difficult to maintain good crowds that include more casual fans, and without big feature pieces that create a buzz it is impossible to grow the crowds.

 

[Skate79]

Re: Harvard Women's Hockey 2011-2012: Taking the Next Step

We close the books on the regular season with another game where the score was totally deceptive. Today's game at Bright was a 4-0 "rout" and I'm being kind when I say that. Yale has no defense and if not for five, yes five hit posts and crossbars and several close in misses, this would have been an 11-0 shellacking. Harvard's failure to finish reared its ugly head along with some very good goaltending by the Yale goalie. She was often left defenseless by her teammates even while on the PP (on one 5 on 3 power play, Jillian Dempsey outfought a Yale defender who was trying to keep the puck in, blew by her on a breakaway from her blue line and hit the pipe after making another stellar move on the goalie. Harvard in fact had more great chances shorthanded than at full strength or on the PP (which was rare because once again the refs decided Yale needed a lot of help today and tried their best to keep Harvard shorthanded as often as possible).

I'm not sure how Dartmouth gave up five goals to this team including two power play goals. Seriously, you have to be pretty bad defensively to let Yale score on you.

Nice touch on Senior Day to let Alyssa Baumgartner skate out first by herself at the beginning of the game and take a twirl around the ice. And a nice presentation after the game to honor her accomplishments.

About the only downer from the game came in the first period when Jo Pucci took a nasty spill near center ice (courtesy of a Yalie and no call of course) and hit her head. She made her way back to the dressing room on her own and after the game, I saw her near the bench talking to several teammates and Coach Stone. She had already showered and changed but looked none the worse for wear. My guess is that they did a concussion protocol on her and shut her down as a precaution. Hope she is okay. We can get by next weekend without her but after that, forget it.

 

[Veritas]

Re: Harvard Women's Hockey 2011-2012: Taking the Next Step

Re Dave1391's comments on playoff schedules. I agree as to having men's and women's at the time being a problem. Some of us have season tix for both teams and I find it hard to be at two places at one time.

Re Skate79 concerning Josephine Pucci - I would hate to miss seeing her but if I recall correctly she had a concussion about a month ago and I am not sure what the protocol is for a sequence of concussions (if that is what happened today althought that was my thought). As to the hit/contact; from where I was watching it did not appear to be a deliberate hit, more a clumsy move by a Yale player. I was sitting with a former ref who said he thought no call was the right thing.

 

[Skate79]

Re: Harvard Women's Hockey 2011-2012: Taking the Next Step

Re Dave1391's comments on playoff schedules. I agree as to having men's and women's at the time being a problem. Some of us have season tix for both teams and I find it hard to be at two places at one time.

Re Skate79 concerning Josephine Pucci - I would hate to miss seeing her but if I recall correctly she had a concussion about a month ago and I am not sure what the protocol is for a sequence of concussions (if that is what happened today althought that was my thought). As to the hit/contact; from where I was watching it did not appear to be a deliberate hit, more a clumsy move by a Yale player. I was sitting with a former ref who said he thought no call was the right thing.

The refs were making some strange calls all weekend on Harvard, some deserved, some not deserved. They were definitely not calling it both ways and that is my chief complaint with the inconsistency of the calls. Players if they were even being brushed by Harvard almost assuredly resulted in a Crimson penalty. So I would have to disagree especially in light of Pucci's injury. You can't not call something awkward or not.