Harvard Crimson 2014-15

[alslammerz]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2014-15

I think you missed the point. Many players with decent academics do get turned away at the Ivies because of their AI score.

However, contrary to what alslammerz indicated, I was under the impression that some borderline players do get in as a result of other players in the same class being academic boosters. I've seen cases where an Ivy candidate all of a sudden became more attractive cause their test scores went up sufficiently to make them an academic booster of the class. Certainly seen this happen at the school one of our D attended.

You're right and agreeing with me all at the same time. Yes, someone can get in because they are an academic booster of the class, or because they are in the same class as an academic booster. But because this is connected to all of the sports, there's no guarantee that the academic booster from women's hockey results in a borderline player getting in for women's hockey. I'm not 100% sure on that, but I do know a lot of the speculation on the men's forum was that Harvard was failing to get a lot of men's recruits in at the same time that men's basketball was getting more players through admissions.

And as for pokechecker's hypothetical woman...she should pick the school she a) gets into b) has the major she wants and c) gives her the best financial aid package/scholarship/has the lowest tuition. Seriously, don't overlook the idea of not having a lot of student debt after graduation. But most of all, she should go where she's going to be the happiest, whatever that means for her. As for the Ivy admissions committee - well, I'm not a fan of the AI but there's plenty of non-athletes with the grades and activities that try to get in and can't too. There's only so many spots. How'd I do despite being a simpleton?

 

[ARM]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2014-15

But most of all, she should go where she's going to be the happiest, whatever that means for her.

Very true. There is no one-size-fits-all school.

 

[Eeyore]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2014-15

While an Ivy degree will certainly help, opportunities post college will depend more on the individual, the chosen major and the quality of education one receives in that chosen major.

If only this were actually true . . .

 

[D2D]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2014-15

If only this were actually true . . .

You would be a billionaire?

 

[Skate79]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2014-15

To be fair, even people with the academic chops to get into Harvard (or other Ivies) don't get in. But the point is that no other league has a stringent score requirement based on standardized tests and GPA like the Ivy League has with the AI. And, IIRC, since the AIs are connected for all sports (except football) a borderline player of one sport might not get in to let a borderline player of another sport in. Which means that someone who would have gotten in under normal conditions doesn't get through admissions - which has happened to Harvard a few times in recent years with big names.

Bingo. ^^^^^THIS^^^^

 

[Skate79]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2014-15

I will concede that your intent was not to disparage the players at MN and Wisco. However, based solely on the little bios that are provided when they are recruited, and on the majors they have been declaring (mostly STEM, business, or pre-med), I would wager that most of them have the academic chops to get into Harvard. In fact, there are quite a few of them that appear to be right in the Harvard wheelhouse. Surprising if Harvard didn't recruit them heavily. The fact is, both MN and Wisco put heavy emphasis on academics and are recruiting exactly the same 5% as Harvard.

I'm not disparaging players at Wisconsin, Minnesota or any other institution. I'm simply saying that the AI makes it harder for Harvard to recruit players and as alslammerz points out, we have to balance that AI across all sports. So if a borderline lacrosse player gets in, a borderline hockey recruit might not. Or football. Or basketball. That is how we lose more than we gain in terms of recruits. That doesn't exist at other schools and it is why the Ivies are at a disadvantage.

I had a Harvard coach tell me to my face how he lost out on recruits to Stanford and Michigan because of the AI and because he can't offer scholarships. It's a reality we face that doesn't hamper the coaches from those other institutions. Especially with more D1 women's programs coming on board.

 

[ne7minder]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2014-15

If only this were actually true . . .

My sister got her masters degree from Yale. She chose to remain in CT after graduation & had more trouble finding a job than I would have expected. I told her that I thought having "YALE" on the degree would open a lot of doors. Said it didn't in CT because "everyone here has a Yale degree!" But when she returned to the frozen tundra that carried a lot of weight.

Selecting a college is a lot like dating. Who you chose is going to depend a lot on what you hope to get out of it and the personality of the choice. That means the city, the campus, the coach, the other players and how you feel about them on an emotional level I doubt many 17 year olds have given any thought to. It's complicated no doubt.

 

[OnMAA]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2014-15

How'd I do despite being a simpleton?

You are underselling yourself. You did more than fine.

 

[alslammerz]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2014-15

You are underselling yourself. You did more than fine.

Well I wasn't the original person that called me an Ivy simpleton

 

[OnMAA]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2014-15

Well I wasn't the original person that called me an Ivy simpleton

Don't sweat it too much. I've been called a lot worse on this board in the past. Accused of all sorts of things and called all sorts of names when trying to stand my ground on some topics. Years later, one poster is still sending me nasty private message on occasion. Sad really. On the bright side, gained many friends as part of the process and still communicate often with some of them on a frequent occasion. This board is like a microcosm of life, you have to take some of the bad with MANY of the good.

 

[OnMAA]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2014-15

But most of all, she should go where she's going to be the happiest, whatever that means for her.

Very true. There is no one-size-fits-all school.

Strongly agree with both of you.

 

[pokechecker]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2014-15

How'd I do despite being a simpleton?

as long as you ask
I thought D2D's answer was more succinct. (more Ivy like)
happiest, …sounds kind of flip, like it came from a recruits older sister who majored in boys
if somebody was interested in a career in chemical engineering (substitute whatever career choice/area of study is of interest here, including hockey), should/would Harvard be the first school on their list?

 

[OnMAA]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2014-15

While an Ivy degree will certainly help, opportunities post college will depend more on the individual, the chosen major and the quality of education one receives in that chosen major.

I do agree that this does not apply to all or everywhere, as someone else already alluded to earlier. But make no mistake, there are many places where the quality of the institution and the quality of the course load taken may be the difference between getting an interview or not, in other words a foot in the door. You are correct, in that how the individual performs in the the rest of the process is paramount. Having said that, I believe that certain "challenging" and "forward/creative thinking" type approaches taken at a more premier/advanced school like the Ivies is a big factor in the process. Things like small class sizes and close working relationships with professors who are leaders in their field are a great benefit as part of this learning process, and allow for more of this type of inter-activities. It is something that you see more at an Ivy than at a BIG "many thousands of student type" Uni's. Most Ivy schools have a relatively small student base of ~5000 undergrads (Ironically Harvard being an exception to that rule).

 

[OnMAA]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2014-15

as long as you ask
I thought D2D's answer was more succinct. (more Ivy like)
happiest, …sounds kind of flip, like it came from a recruits older sister who majored in boys
if somebody was interested in a career in chemical engineering (substitute whatever career choice/area of study is of interest here, including hockey), should/would Harvard be the first school on their list?

I'll bite on this....If you are looking for an engineering degree AND want to play varsity Hockey, RPI and Cornell are two of your prime destinations. Both RPI and Cornell's engineering programs have excellent reputations. I happen to be an Engineer. In Canada it is Waterloo, UofT, UBC and McGill, in the US it is schools like MIT, Cal Tech, G-Tech, Stanford, Berkely that stand out as top engineering schools.

 

[pokechecker]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2014-15

I'll bite on this....If you are looking for an engineering degree AND want to play varsity Hockey, RPI and Cornell are two of your prime destinations. Both RPI and Cornell's engineering programs have excellent reputations. I happen to be an Engineer. In Canada it is Waterloo, UofT, UBC and McGill, in the US it is schools like MIT, Cal Tech, G-Tech, Stanford, Berkely that stand out as top engineering schools.

I don't happen to be an engineer, I am one

in the US

on the other hand, if you wanted to be a chemical engineer (or just about any type), and be employed as one, especially in the midwest, you'd be hard pressed to find a better school than MN or WI

wouldn't be a bad choice for hockey either, would it?

there are numerous other professions these state schools would be a wiser choice as well

 

[ARM]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2014-15

In Canada it is Waterloo, UofT, UBC and McGill, in the US it is schools like MIT, Cal Tech, G-Tech, Stanford, Berkely that stand out as top engineering schools.

For majors like engineering, the sciences, and math, I don't think that the given school matters to the same degree as it may with some of the more verbal majors like philosophy or political science. Every school uses the same periodic table, Newton has the same laws, and the value of the square root of two or pi isn't computed to a higher degree at a "better" school. Reputation is great, but a Will Hunting will still be farther along in five years than somebody who has an impressive degree.

 

[alslammerz]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2014-15

as long as you ask
I thought D2D's answer was more succinct. (more Ivy like)
happiest, …sounds kind of flip, like it came from a recruits older sister who majored in boys
if somebody was interested in a career in chemical engineering (substitute whatever career choice/area of study is of interest here, including hockey), should/would Harvard be the first school on their list?

I mean, I'm a guy and I thought about where I was going to be happiest - what if the young lady wanted to be a chemical engineering student but felt like she'd be lost at a school with an enrollment of over 10k a year? What if she was from the Northeast and didn't want to be too far from home? Or she didn't want a school too rural (not that it'd apply to Wiscy or Minny)? That's all happiness.

But of course this is all besides the point, because the point was Harvard HAS lost recruits that had Harvard as their top pick. And those students have then gone on to BU, BC, Cornell, Minnesota, Wisconsin, etc.

 

[OnMAA]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2014-15

I don't happen to be an engineer, I am one

in the US

While I live and work in Canada, actually work for a US company, and my stock options are in US funds, which is a great 20% bonus currently, but alas one of my daughters med school tuition is also in US funds and that is more hefty than my company stock options. For what it is worth agree that WI and MN are good schools. One of my duaghters is at a very reputable school in the Mid West, not Minnesota, but it was on her list, as it is renowned in her field with the Mayo clinic, and it was attractive in that it is a great place to be able to continue to play hockey post grad)

 

[Skate79]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2014-15

For majors like engineering, the sciences, and math, I don't think that the given school matters to the same degree as it may with some of the more verbal majors like philosophy or political science. Every school uses the same periodic table, Newton has the same laws, and the value of the square root of two or pi isn't computed to a higher degree at a "better" school. Reputation is great, but a Will Hunting will still be farther along in five years than somebody who has an impressive degree.

True. My brother is an engineer and was heavily recruited by RPI before settling on Wentworth here in Boston. Reason? His girlfriend at the time was going to school in Boston and he didn't want to be that far away from her. They are married with two boys and he has a great career that has been on an upward trajectory since he graduated. Would RPI have made that much of a difference? Hard to say. I do think that if a young woman has a strong math, science or engineering aptitude and is a D-1 caliber hockey player, choosing between RPI, Cornell or Clarkson would make a lot of sense. So in that vein, yes choice does matter.

 

[pokechecker]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2014-15

But of course this is all besides the point, because the point was Harvard HAS lost recruits that had Harvard as their top pick. And those students have then gone on to BU, BC, Cornell, Minnesota, Wisconsin, etc.

isn't it kind of a slap in the face to the Harvard players to say this? It sounds like you are saying this is the best we could get, if our academic standards were lower, we'd get better players.

looking at many of the top players in the WCHA (I'm not familiar enough with eastern teams) they are also top students

are you saying they aren't smart enough?

I think the real problem is that you are the one lacking in smarts

PS to ONMAA:
it always seems people out east are snobs in that they overlook what lies between the coasts, you for example, didn't mention U of Alberta, a very fine school for engineering