Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

[wwhyte]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

Well, they have 16 skaters and 14 played, all but one F and one D, in a truly "crazy intense" game. No complaints here.

On the BC side, we played 10 or 11 F (Meghan Grieves was dressed but I didn't see her on the ice) and 5 out of 7 D, so the benches were pretty even. I agree with Skate79's summary, though: this was a crazy intense game, the fastest and best I've seen BC all season. Great play from Harvard too.

 

[wwhyte]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

Harvard Athletics say there were 1,729 attendees, the third highest in women's hockey history. Great atmosphere.

 

[OnMAA]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

Harvard Athletics say there were 1,729 attendees, the third highest in women's hockey history. Great atmosphere.

Given the various game write-ups (it being high skilled and exiting), good on Harvard to pick the right game to do this......

 

[Skate79]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

Is this not regular routine for Stone, meaning, playing a short bench?

Yes and it has been bugging me for years. She tends to go with a group of 10 to 12 skaters playing heavy minutes and it wears us down in games like yesterday. We don't have a deep roster this year but that doesn't mean the third line has to take shorter shifts or that Abby Frazier and Robin White can't play some minutes to take the heat off Edney, Mastel and Gedman.

 

[Skate79]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

On the BC side, we played 10 or 11 F (Meghan Grieves was dressed but I didn't see her on the ice) and 5 out of 7 D, so the benches were pretty even. I agree with Skate79's summary, though: this was a crazy intense game, the fastest and best I've seen BC all season. Great play from Harvard too.

I guess I should explain myself here with respect to the 'depth' question. Harvard has a short bench - we have ten forwards that dress but only nine play and of those nine, seven get heavy minutes. That was on full display yesterday and it led to some breakdowns that might not have happened if our third line played more minutes.

Also, Abby Frazier played only a few shifts where she is very capable of taking a regular shift as is Robin White who didn't play but dressed. Our D, in particular Edney and Mastel desperately needed some breathers going against BC's forwards who were buzzing us all afternoon. You can't ask a few players to play so many minutes and expect to do well against top competition. It's part of the reason why we didn't win an NCAA championship in '05. Katey didn't want to match Minnesota's depth in the third period of that game and it eventually cost us.

 

[Skate79]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

Nice write-up of the game, Skate79, but I couldn't help but notice one inconsistency. You first observe that "Harvard's lack of depth and finishing skill really hurt them in this game" but then you "really, really wish Harvard would use its bench". I did not see the game, nor have I seen Harvard play this year, but from afar I might conclude that there could be a good reason why the coach doesn't use its bench more... if there really is a serious fall-off in ability as you get towards the end of the bench. Don't know, but from a distance it does seem possible.

P.S. That said, I do understand that the bench will not develop as it maybe should if you leave those players sitting on the bench in big games like this one.

Thanks. I've posted my response to your question so I won't repeat but on this year's team, there isn't a dramatic fall off in talent towards the end of the bench unless you include Hannah Zarecki whom we have barely seen play this year. There is no reason not to use everyone consistently but Crowell is following Katey Stone's mantra of 10-12 skaters playing heavy minutes. Yesterday, it cost us to some degree.

 

[wwhyte]

Given the various game write-ups (it being high skilled and exiting), good on Harvard to pick the right game to do this......

Yeah, I felt that Vermont should maybe have picked the UNH game rather than the BC game for Pack the Gut. At least the crowd would have seen a more even contest.

 

[wwhyte]

Thanks. I've posted my response to your question so I won't repeat but on this year's team, there isn't a dramatic fall off in talent towards the end of the bench unless you include Hannah Zarecki whom we have barely seen play this year. There is no reason not to use everyone consistently but Crowell is following Katey Stone's mantra of 10-12 skaters playing heavy minutes. Yesterday, it cost us to some degree.

Maybe, but even your tired D were plenty fast enough. We needed the extra attacker to break through. Short bench or not, that's a great team you have there.

 

[ARM]

Yesterday, it cost us to some degree.

Or it could have saved you, we don't know. A team can get by for a game playing four D. The problem comes in the long term where people get worn down, or if somebody gets injured or tossed from a game, then there is nobody experienced to use as a replacement. Maybe the thinking was that your D on the bottom of the depth chart weren't ready to handle BC's speed and skill. I remember when UM lost the NCAA game at BC three years ago, Stack lit up our sixth D on back-to-back goals.

 

[Watson Rink]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

Over at the BC thread, wwhyte wrote: "The BC PK was excellent, the PP less good. The Harvard PK was very defensive and effective, the BC PK very aggressive. There was one memorable BC PK at (I think) the start of the third where they seemed to be in the Harvard zone for at least 90 of the 120 seconds and set up almost an inverse PP pattern that Harvard were unable to disrupt. Would have been a good time for one of our shorties but you can't get those every game."

Wwhyte was too modest to say that while BC didn't get one of its shorties (9 in 18 games this year!) in yesterday's game, they sure know when to pick their spots, as in the one they scored against Harvard in the third (or was it fourth?)overtime of the '08 (was it?) Beanpot championship game (I still feel the sting of that one!). Perhaps they're saving one up for later this year?

Here's hoping the '13-'14 women's season will be as thrilling as the '62-'63 men's season, when (if memory serves) all three BC-Harvard games were decided by a single goal, one or perhaps two went to overtime, and one team won the Beanpot and the other the ECAC championship (I forget which was which). If you have to share the kudos, I'm glad to share them with a school and a program like BC.

 

[COLD AS ICE]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

I guess I should explain myself here with respect to the 'depth' question. Harvard has a short bench - we have ten forwards that dress but only nine play and of those nine, seven get heavy minutes. That was on full display yesterday and it led to some breakdowns that might not have happened if our third line played more minutes.

Also, Abby Frazier played only a few shifts where she is very capable of taking a regular shift as is Robin White who didn't play but dressed. Our D, in particular Edney and Mastel desperately needed some breathers going against BC's forwards who were buzzing us all afternoon. You can't ask a few players to play so many minutes and expect to do well against top competition. It's part of the reason why we didn't win an NCAA championship in '05. Katey didn't want to match Minnesota's depth in the third period of that game and it eventually cost us.

This was one of the finest nonplayoff college games I have seen. The pace of the game was exceptional. It was end to end almost the entire game. There was a real premium on skating. I believe the speed of the game, especially the speed of the BC forwards dictated Harvard going with basically 4 D. While Frazier and White have been doing well in other games, the coaches obviously did not feel they could play at this pace. The 2 best skating D on Harvard are Edney and Rachlin. They are each paired with a bigger more powerful D, Gedman and Mastel. These combos worked.The 1 shift where Frazier and Mastel were on the ice together was a disaster. They could not got the puck out of the zone, and they could not keep up with some unbelivably quick cycling by the BC forwards. I would agree that over the course of the season Frazier and White need to get minutes and hopefully will continue to develop their skills. However, they were not ready to play in the track meet on ice Saturday.

 

[TonyTheTiger20]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

Really, really wish I didn't have to leave after the 2nd period. The first two periods were about as good as it gets.

 

[HockeyEast33]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

This was one of the finest nonplayoff college games I have seen. The pace of the game was exceptional. It was end to end almost the entire game. There was a real premium on skating. I believe the speed of the game, especially the speed of the BC forwards dictated Harvard going with basically 4 D. While Frazier and White have been doing well in other games, the coaches obviously did not feel they could play at this pace. The 2 best skating D on Harvard are Edney and Rachlin. They are each paired with a bigger more powerful D, Gedman and Mastel. These combos worked.The 1 shift where Frazier and Mastel were on the ice together was a disaster. They could not got the puck out of the zone, and they could not keep up with some unbelivably quick cycling by the BC forwards. I would agree that over the course of the season Frazier and White need to get minutes and hopefully will continue to develop their skills. However, they were not ready to play in the track meet on ice Saturday.

These comments track perfectly with my knowledge of the 6 defensemen in question (and I am very familiar with 5 of them).... would have thought Frazier and/or White would have been paired with Rachlin or Edney rather than Mastel, but guessing that circumstances or in-play events prevented this....

 

[Skate79]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

Or it could have saved you, we don't know. A team can get by for a game playing four D. The problem comes in the long term where people get worn down, or if somebody gets injured or tossed from a game, then there is nobody experienced to use as a replacement. Maybe the thinking was that your D on the bottom of the depth chart weren't ready to handle BC's speed and skill. I remember when UM lost the NCAA game at BC three years ago, Stack lit up our sixth D on back-to-back goals.

I agree to a point. There are times when you can spot shift the lower half of your bench to give your regulars a breather now and then during the course of the game. It was so obvious to those of us watching that Harvard was gassed by the third period. And it had to do with playing those 12 regulars until they were worn down. True BC had to pull their goalie to tie the game but I still maintain that a little extra oxygen goes a long way.

 

[Skate79]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

This was one of the finest nonplayoff college games I have seen. The pace of the game was exceptional. It was end to end almost the entire game. There was a real premium on skating. I believe the speed of the game, especially the speed of the BC forwards dictated Harvard going with basically 4 D. While Frazier and White have been doing well in other games, the coaches obviously did not feel they could play at this pace. The 2 best skating D on Harvard are Edney and Rachlin. They are each paired with a bigger more powerful D, Gedman and Mastel. These combos worked.The 1 shift where Frazier and Mastel were on the ice together was a disaster. They could not got the puck out of the zone, and they could not keep up with some unbelivably quick cycling by the BC forwards. I would agree that over the course of the season Frazier and White need to get minutes and hopefully will continue to develop their skills. However, they were not ready to play in the track meet on ice Saturday.

I don't think you are giving Abby Frazier enough credit for being able to handle BC's speed. By the third period, all of our D were having problems, not just Abby. It isn't fair to single her out for one shift. Yes I remember that pairing having big problems. So did our PP when we couldn't get it out of our zone for what seemed like a minute. Abby is more than capable of playing at this level against very good competition. She more than held her own against UNH the night before - in fact, she got more minutes that Rachlin that evening. So I know Crowell thinks she can deliver.

 

[Watson Rink]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

Just to complicate the analysis, recall that Frazier, a D in her previous career, was the coach's choice to play third line center (a position requiring not inconsiderable speed) in the McGill match when EParker played D, and in subsequent games when EParker was injured, ....only since EParker has recovered, and began playing second line left wing, has Frazier been playing D in college. Is she projected to be the next EParker/Jen Brawn in terms of versatility? That could be a big asset to an undermanned squad.

 

[HockeyEast33]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

I don't think you are giving Abby Frazier enough credit for being able to handle BC's speed. By the third period, all of our D were having problems, not just Abby. It isn't fair to single her out for one shift. Yes I remember that pairing having big problems. So did our PP when we couldn't get it out of our zone for what seemed like a minute. Abby is more than capable of playing at this level against very good competition. She more than held her own against UNH the night before - in fact, she got more minutes that Rachlin that evening. So I know Crowell thinks she can deliver.

I think the counter-argument here would be that UNH doesn't play at nearly the speed and skill level of BC so Crowell felt that all the D could play at this level and that it was to Harvard's advantage to use them all given that there would be a shorter bench in the game the next day. In fact, playing the D you weren't planning to use much the next day more than those that you are fits in perfectly with that approach.

 

[Sfan]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

I think the counter-argument here would be that UNH doesn't play at nearly the speed and skill level of BC so Crowell felt that all the D could play at this level and that it was to Harvard's advantage to use them all given that there would be a shorter bench in the game the next day. In fact, playing the D you weren't planning to use much the next day more than those that you are fits in perfectly with that approach.

Funny thing about Frazer. Played D in Team Canada 3-0 win over USA in Czech Republic. Regular shift whole game. 1st unit PK. Alternate on PP. Fearless shot blocker. Stopped Carpenter, Skarupa one on one. Two USA D now on Harvard did not see much ice that game, if at all. Frazer now sitting on the bench. Weird.

 

[clarksoncluck]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

Funny thing about Frazer. Played D in Team Canada 3-0 win over USA in Czech Republic. Regular shift whole game. 1st unit PK. Alternate on PP. Fearless shot blocker. Stopped Carpenter, Skarupa one on one. Two USA D now on Harvard did not see much ice that game, if at all. Frazer now sitting on the bench. Weird.

Feels like a parent talking.

 

[Hux]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

Funny thing about Frazer. Played D in Team Canada 3-0 win over USA in Czech Republic. Regular shift whole game. 1st unit PK. Alternate on PP. Fearless shot blocker. Stopped Carpenter, Skarupa one on one. Two USA D now on Harvard did not see much ice that game, if at all. Frazer now sitting on the bench. Weird.

Yeah, gee kinda like saying the driving is the same in Toronto as it is in London. Different systems take getting used to. Maybe the US kids adapted quicker. Relax, it will all work out in the end.