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Grand Unified Election Thread 2: What is the difference between Biden and Dump?

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Kepler said:
Middle officers. The leadership is by definition in bed with the status quo. Then Quaddafi, a colonel in the signals corps, comes along ...
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I have no personal experience with coups, so I won't dispute you. However, I suspect that the middle officers by definition (and probably necessity) desire to be the senior officers, and soon will be.
 
That British comedian post nailed it when he said “they looked like dogs who chased a car and caught it, now what do we do?”
paraphrasing....
 
SJHovey said:
I have no personal experience with coups, so I won't dispute you. However, I suspect that the middle officers by definition (and probably necessity) desire to be the senior officers, and soon will be.
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That is kind of what he is saying though. It takes those middle officers who want to move up (without merit) to be able to pull it off. Just having the head of the Army isnt going to do anything...they are one against many. (the many who can choose to ignore him cause he is never with them) But when your Captain is the one pushing it, the people you have fought with and trained with...it has way more weight. When the Colonel in charge of your base has the balls to take action you will fight for him over the faceless name who sends you orders every so often.
 
Handyman said:
That is kind of what he is saying though. It takes those middle officers who want to move up (without merit) to be able to pull it off. Just having the head of the Army isnt going to do anything...they are one against many. (the many who can choose to ignore him cause he is never with them) But when your Captain is the one pushing it, the people you have fought with and trained with...it has way more weight. When the Colonel in charge of your base has the balls to take action you will fight for him over the faceless name who sends you orders every so often.
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This.
 
Handyman said:
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Jim you are giving them way too much credit. Even if it all worked AND the Pentagon was 100% on board (it seems like only the top level clowns though were) the states would have never gone along with it nor would DC. That is why Virginia sent their troops and Maryland was fighting to. If the coup works every New England State sends their guard right away. It would have been outright chaos. It would have just lead the dissolving of the USA if it ever got to the end point. Trump would have been the dictator of nothing but a bunch of Red States when all is said and done. But most likely as soon as the Virginia and Maryland Guard start shooting the Auschwitz crowd would have run for the hills.

Plus you need 100% buy in from everyone in a position to stop him. All it takes is one non-Trumper Secret Service Person to end all of it. Even his own inner circle wasn't all on board with it they were begging him as it happened to put out a statement to stop it. You assume he commands a loyalty level that has never been proven to be true. (otherwise we wouldn't be here now)

To tell you how out to lunch these people are they think Osama Bin Laden's niece is some insider who is someone to listen to. They flock to her because she tells them Trump will be President for Eleventy more years and they drool about it. Nevermind that most of these clowns hated Obama because he was supposedly a Muslim with a name that resembled Osama...
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I’m only looking at it on the micro scale, not the macro scale like you guys. What would’ve happened after they seized the Capitol and took out Pelosi and Pence is immaterial to me and my argument. What I’m speaking about is these people were steps away from breaking into the actual chambers and taking Congresspersons hostage. That takes some smarts to even get that close as they did, and that’s f-ing scary. They shouldn’t have even gotten that close. Everyone wants to paint this as a dumb mob that got lucky, it wasn’t. This was a planned attack that would’ve ended with this country in a civil war at best but didn’t because we got lucky.

tl;dr: The country almost descended into chaos. It took some smarts to even get to the brink of that. The sooner we realize that, the sooner we can effectively clean this mess up.
 
BassAle said:
I think you had some crazies with zip ties, body armor, that had posted online fantasies. Most of the people were part of the mob and just along for the ride.

The problem is an uneducated mob can cause a lot of damage, and there are millions of branwashed fools out there.
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These weren’t “crazies”. These were people committed to a cause and with a plan.
 
SJHovey said:
I have no personal experience with coups, so I won't dispute you. However, I suspect that the middle officers by definition (and probably necessity) desire to be the senior officers, and soon will be.
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Not so soon. In the army, a promotion to Captain (highest company grade rank) is pretty much assured by anyone who wants to put the time in and doesn't mess up. 5 years, tops. But to make Colonel (highest field grade rank) you're probably going to have over well 20 years in and probably 6-10 or more as a Major and Lt. Colonel, depending on different factors.
 
Jimjamesak said:
I’m only looking at it on the micro scale, not the macro scale like you guys. What would’ve happened after they seized the Capitol and took out Pelosi and Pence is immaterial to me and my argument. What I’m speaking about is these people were steps away from breaking into the actual chambers and taking Congresspersons hostage. That takes some smarts to even get that close as they did, and that’s f-ing scary. They shouldn’t have even gotten that close. Everyone wants to paint this as a dumb mob that got lucky, it wasn’t. This was a planned attack that would’ve ended with this country in a civil war at best but didn’t because we got lucky.

tl;dr: The country almost descended into chaos. It took some smarts to even get to the brink of that. The sooner we realize that, the sooner we can effectively clean this mess up.
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Oh I agree with all of this. I am just saying there is no endgame here. What they wanted could not happen which is why ultimately it was doomed to fail. In the near term though it would have lead to all sort of chaos and mass amounts of death and destruction but when the smoke clears Trump is no closer to staying in office than he is right now.

That is where the disconnect seems to lie. Those of us with a functioning brain see all of this and go "even if you win you still lose so what is the point?". At best they hold the capitol hostage for a day, and whatever Kangaroo Court version of the Electoral College vote they try to perform will be ignored as they die/get arrested. So Biden still wins and Trump probably gets arrested for incitement if he doesn't flee or make a national address to stop it. (which he wouldnt) To us it makes zero sense. To them though they dont see it that way. They arent playing chess they are playing checkers. They are the sucker at the poker table who gets too excited when they win a few hands and start overbetting and acting aggressive. All you need to do is wait...there is no logic or game theory.

My dad asked as we watched the riots "what is the point...what are they trying to accomplish?" and when I answered he couldnt understand because he is applying truth and logic to people who are duped by lies and acting contrary to all logic. Like people who say stuff like "peace through violence" or "authoritarianism is fine in the name of democracy" there is no thinking involved...it is basic gut instinct and nothing more.

The smart ones took advantage of all that to do what they really wanted to do. Those are the ones seen planning on videos. The majority though? They couldnt plan a bake sale let alone a coup.
 
BassAle said:
how did it almost work? it was a dumb plan. Even if the hung Mike Pence, or kidnapped Pelosi, it wouldn't make Trump dictator for life. The only way this coup would have worked is if the Pentagon was on board, and everyone down the line followed orders. You think everyone's going to sit around while they make congress throw out electoral votes at gunpoint, and then just shrug their shoulders and go along with it?
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But what if the Pentagon hadn't?

What if the cops and the military marched on the Capitol with the mob, like Donnie, in his usual, "not telling or ordering you to do, but you know what I want you to do" mob boss manner urged them to do in his address at the rally?

It WAS that close to succeeding.
 
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rufus said:
But what if the Pentagon hadn't?

What if the cops and the military marched on the Capitol with the mob, like Donnie, in his usual, "not telling or ordering you to do, but you know what I want you to do" mob boss manner urged them to do in his address at the rally?

It WAS that close to succeeding.
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And what if I won the lottery and married a supermodel? If you are asking what if that means it didn't happen and if you are naming multiple variables it wasnt really close. Like when your team loses and you go "what if the QB doesn't get sacked on this play and what if they call this penalty?". Well yeah if everything that went wrong went right you have a better outcome.
 
rufus said:
But what if the Pentagon hadn't?

What if the cops and the military marched on the Capitol with the mob, like Donnie, in his usual, "not telling or ordering you to do, but you know what I want you to do" mob boss manner urged them to do in his address at the rally?

It WAS that close to succeeding.
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Of course if the cops and military marched on the Capitol we'd be fucked.

I'm not saying it wasn't, and still isn't, a dangerous situation -- but I don't think this is some kind of sophisticated plot with inside help. These are a bunch of [dangerous] nut jobs posting crazy shit on the internet that are so delusional that some of them think they are some part of a patriotic army.That's fucked up for sure, but I don't think they were even close to succeeding at anything that would have come close to their objective of "stopping the steal". They probably DID come dangerously close to killing some politicians, but that still wouldn't have overturned the election.
 
Handyman said:
That is kind of what he is saying though. It takes those middle officers who want to move up (without merit) to be able to pull it off. Just having the head of the Army isnt going to do anything...they are one against many. (the many who can choose to ignore him cause he is never with them) But when your Captain is the one pushing it, the people you have fought with and trained with...it has way more weight. When the Colonel in charge of your base has the balls to take action you will fight for him over the faceless name who sends you orders every so often.
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Given how large, diverse, and distributed our armed forces are- it would take a whole lot of those middle officers to pull that off.
 
rufus said:
But what if the Pentagon hadn't?

What if the cops and the military marched on the Capitol with the mob, like Donnie, in his usual, "not telling or ordering you to do, but you know what I want you to do" mob boss manner urged them to do in his address at the rally?

It WAS that close to succeeding.
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From kidnapping people, sure.

From an actual coup, not even close. Again, all it takes is ONE illegal order, and then military shifts who they listen to. So far, the integrity of our military leaders have really shown here- for it to really work, ALL of the joint chiefs would have to be in on it, as well as all of their subordinates.

That, and just taking out congress does not end our country. It would be REALLY hard to run it for a while, but thanks to the distribution of the states, it would not doom the entire thing to nothing.

And we are circled back to the "What's the Point" argument that Handy just made.
 
It's funny- we all think about our central government, and how bad that is.

But the reality is that government is very distributed around this country, running stuff on their own levels (city, county, state, federal- which is also regional somewhat). And that also goes for the military- other than the one CIC, the fact that we have multiple branches, doing totally different things, distributed all around the world- it makes any quick take over unrealistic. To the point that even if we were invaded, taking DC would be rather meaningless. Much like how taking Philadelphia didn't end the revolution back in 1777.
 
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