Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

I think you mean Breitbart. Matt Drudge is still happily oozing his way through life.

I'm sure you at least understand the point.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

I'm sure you at least understand the point.

I understand the point. I am sympathetic to the idea that much of what we regard as the institutional skeleton that protects our rights and freedoms has been compromised by wealthy interests who regard the general population as domesticated livestock to be exploited, either as labor or as consumers.

I do not think it's a vast conspiracy. Small-scale conspiracies are no doubt engineered from time to time, on the order of corporations rigging markets by collusion. After all, it's the same 10k people serving on all the interconnected boards, all looking after themselves and their class interests.

I think the solution is to reassert democratic control over those institutions, claw back money and power, rebuild protections so that these large accumulations of capital are impossible, and in general decentralize authority and power. Libertarians have it half right in limiting government, but they defeat their own purpose by throwing us on the tender mercies of the private sector which is fundamentally anti-democratic. Liberals have it half right in limiting big business. We typically fail to sever the ties between business and government which are the basic evil in the system, but at least government has a hope of being democratic and self-correcting.

It is entirely possible to believe all these things and still accept that Andrew Breitbart was a pill-gobbling hot mess who eventually and quite predictably burned himself out. Cause of death: lifestyle choices.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

People who believe in conspiracy theories are basically exercising their cultural need to feel unique or "non-conformist", ironically by conforming to the basic beliefs and standards of another minority group.

If Flag had gone to Cornell and majored in Art History, he'd be a hipster.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

People who believe in conspiracy theories are basically exercising their cultural need to feel unique or "non-conformist", ironically by conforming to the basic beliefs and standards of another minority group.

If Flag had gone to Cornell and majored in Art History, he'd be a hipster.

Trust me, our art history majors aren't hipsters. They're running the Guggenheim or the Smithsonian and are indistinguishable from the board of Wells Fargo.

It's also lazy to diss non-conformists by claiming they're all posers. There are 5 types of NCs: Kerouacs (posers), Ginsburgs (romantics), Cassadys (hood ornaments), Keseys (profiteers), and Burroughs (bat sh1t crazies).

OT: This is great. I got Carolyn Cassady. Well, at least I'm hot.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

People who believe in conspiracy theories are basically exercising their cultural need to feel unique or "non-conformist", ironically by conforming to the basic beliefs and standards of another minority group.

If Flag had gone to Cornell and majored in Art History, he'd be a hipster.

Did I just get goth served?

I would never major in Art History. Heck, people thought I'd be a music major! I have a brain about my future to not go down that path.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

I understand the point. I am sympathetic to the idea that much of what we regard as the institutional skeleton that protects our rights and freedoms has been compromised by wealthy interests who regard the general population as domesticated livestock to be exploited, either as labor or as consumers.

I do not think it's a vast conspiracy. Small-scale conspiracies are no doubt engineered from time to time, on the order of corporations rigging markets by collusion. After all, it's the same 10k people serving on all the interconnected boards, all looking after themselves and their class interests.

I think the solution is to reassert democratic control over those institutions, claw back money and power, rebuild protections so that these large accumulations of capital are impossible, and in general decentralize authority and power. Libertarians have it half right in limiting government, but they defeat their own purpose by throwing us on the tender mercies of the private sector which is fundamentally anti-democratic. Liberals have it half right in limiting big business. We typically fail to sever the ties between business and government which are the basic evil in the system, but at least government has a hope of being democratic and self-correcting.

It is entirely possible to believe all these things and still accept that Andrew Breitbart was a pill-gobbling hot mess who eventually and quite predictably burned himself out. Cause of death: lifestyle choices.

The biggest difference between the libertarian view and the socialist view is that the libertarian view provides an alternative for opportunity. You speak of the private sector as if it's some sort of oligarchy that is very similar to the oligarchial governments of today. All it takes to counteract the "tender mercies" is to offer a better product. Yes, I'm aware of buyouts and mergers, but I'm sure the cycle will start all over again. You speak of how government needs to get involved when it comes to big business, but did it ever occur to you that they may already be involved, and use that connection to create the limitations you see today that prevent that offering of a better product, similar to what you hint with the issues on the socialist side of the coin? How about some examples.

I'm sure you're familiar with the "tiny home" movement, which some might call the Hoovervilles of the 21st century. Real estate businesses lose out because of those. How do they look to fight it? Simple: They get their government pals involved to create zoning ordinances that establish floors on square footage or permanent establishments, or require the tiny home owners to be "mobile", literally.

Let's also consider power. I know solar has been mentioned before, and as I've said on here before, it's a decent solution if you're talking about a rural area (not so much so for more dense areas). All the power companies need to do is to get governments, such as ones in Florida, to evict homeowners for not using the public utlities, and instead going "off the grid". The same could be said in some areas for ground water, especially around national parks. And I'm sure you are aware of the continuous fight on the Bundy ranch.

Government is essentially a business. Sure, it might have different rules and objectives, but they are fundamentally the same, with agendas to facilitate its success. Once this is understood, only then can both sides begin to work on a solution together. I see hope in this between opposites such as you and me, perhaps it's time to spread word to all "warring factions" pushed apart by the true enemy.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

The biggest difference between the libertarian view and the socialist view is that the libertarian view provides an alternative for opportunity. You speak of the private sector as if it's some sort of oligarchy that is very similar to the oligarchial governments of today. All it takes to counteract the "tender mercies" is to offer a better product. Yes, I'm aware of buyouts and mergers, but I'm sure the cycle will start all over again. You speak of how government needs to get involved when it comes to big business, but did it ever occur to you that they may already be involved, and use that connection to create the limitations you see today that prevent that offering of a better product, similar to what you hint with the issues on the socialist side of the coin? How about some examples.

I'm sure you're familiar with the "tiny home" movement, which some might call the Hoovervilles of the 21st century. Real estate businesses lose out because of those. How do they look to fight it? Simple: They get their government pals involved to create zoning ordinances that establish floors on square footage or permanent establishments, or require the tiny home owners to be "mobile", literally.

Let's also consider power. I know solar has been mentioned before, and as I've said on here before, it's a decent solution if you're talking about a rural area (not so much so for more dense areas). All the power companies need to do is to get governments, such as ones in Florida, to evict homeowners for not using the public utlities, and instead going "off the grid". The same could be said in some areas for ground water, especially around national parks. And I'm sure you are aware of the continuous fight on the Bundy ranch.

Government is essentially a business. Sure, it might have different rules and objectives, but they are fundamentally the same, with agendas to facilitate its success. Once this is understood, only then can both sides begin to work on a solution together. I see hope in this between opposites such as you and me, perhaps it's time to spread word to all "warring factions" pushed apart by the true enemy.

Our primary difference is really one of emphasis and wouldn't preclude working together. As it should be, since in a "post-oppressor" society there will still be just as much variety in values, interests and aims as now -- they will just play out in a differently-shaped political and economic space.

I think both "business" and "government" are misdirecting terms. In the end, the only actors are individual people. We limit the scope of behavior of individual criminals because allowing them perfect freedom impinges on many, many other people's freedom. I advocate doing the same for the concentration of power. Individual super-rich people aren't "criminals" (at least, not necessarily), but their monopoly of power creates a public nuisance and in practical terms impinges on the life, liberty and pursuit of happiness of the vast majority of people who are not. A world where the accumulation of wealth is not limited but 99% live in misery is not a "free" world. A person with no means to achieve his aims is as imprisoned as a person under literal coercion.

Government is the tool nearest to hand for limiting the predations of the super-wealthy. If there's a better one, I'm all ears. But it seems to me that the fatal flaw of all market-oriented philosophies is the market is inevitably, immediately, and irrevocably corrupted without regulation by something outside of it. For about a thousand years the best bet for that sort of limitation was the universal church. Now it's government. Someday it will be something else.

Either that or we'll reach a technological post-scarcity society where people no longer have to sell their freedom to the wealthy, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

C'mon folks ... that can't be the real list of conspiracies.

"Common Core" education standards doesn't show up on it so it has to be a false flag operation.

No FEMA camps, either. Pretty shoddy.

RE: Common Core --
Anything that riles up the far Left and the far Right so much is all OK by me. Why?
Because if the ends of the spectrum both hate it, it has to be pretty close to down the middle.

“Conservatives hate anything with the word ‘national’ in it, and liberals hate anything with the word ‘test.’ ” -- (former) Assistant Education Secretary Checker Finn

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

Government is the tool nearest to hand for limiting the predations of the super-wealthy.

I believe you have the incorrect "be" verb in your sentence.

Government was the tool; however, today it is the tool for wealth on the Left and the Right to rig the game to their outcome.

This is where my Libertarian streak tends to show up: Smaller, less power-consolidated government is now the only available counter-action to the mess we've allowed to fester and grow.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

I believe you have the incorrect "be" verb in your sentence.

Government was the tool; however, today it is the tool for wealth on the Left and the Right to rig the game to their outcome.

This is where my Libertarian streak tends to show up: Smaller, less power-consolidated government is now the only available counter-action to the mess we've allowed to fester and grow.

It's winter. Your windows have cracks. The solution is not to punch out the windows, it's to get new ones.

Government is the only tool average people have come up with to stop elites from bullying them. If government has been taken over by those very elites, the solution is not to get rid of it -- all that does is cede all the territory to the people who are the problem to begin with.

It's not even hard to have a government that allows a vibrant middle class and widespread opportunity. We had one from the 40's through the 70's. Then the rot of plutocracy set in again, as it will from time to time. Now it's time to burn off the rot. The ideal time to do so was in the wake of the financial crisis (just as it was in 1932), but interests were stronger this time and had a lot more tools at their disposal. Perhaps it will take an even larger crisis, but hey, as long as the country continues along the road we set it on in 1980, that crisis is inevitable.

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

It's not even hard to have a government that allows a vibrant middle class and widespread opportunity. We had one from the 40's through the 70's. Then the rot of plutocracy set in again, as it will from time to time. Now it's time to burn off the rot. The ideal time to do so was in the wake of the financial crisis (just as it was in 1932), but interests were stronger this time and had a lot more tools at their disposal. Perhaps it will take an even larger crisis, but hey, as long as the country continues along the road we set it on in 1980, that crisis is inevitable.

You can also look at other countries that have a vibrant middle class, widespread opportunity, and better financial oversight.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

It's winter. Your windows have cracks. The solution is not to punch out the windows, it's to get new ones.

Government is the only tool average people have come up with to stop elites from bullying them. If government has been taken over by those very elites, the solution is not to get rid of it -- all that does is cede all the territory to the people who are the problem to begin with.

It's not even hard to have a government that allows a vibrant middle class and widespread opportunity. We had one from the 40's through the 70's. Then the rot of plutocracy set in again, as it will from time to time. Now it's time to burn off the rot. The ideal time to do so was in the wake of the financial crisis (just as it was in 1932), but interests were stronger this time and had a lot more tools at their disposal. Perhaps it will take an even larger crisis, but hey, as long as the country continues along the road we set it on in 1980, that crisis is inevitable.

We're obviously in somewhat of agreement that government has been taken over by those very elites. The founding fathers did provide an advantage (in theory) to fix those in government, but what if that last bastion is also broken? You have people voting multiple times, illegal immigrants voting, and a two-party system that "primaries" the fixes to leave the problems in power.

IIRC, Iceland started fresh a few years ago. We should take a look and see how things are going there. I'm not saying that we should perfectly emulate that case because of scope, but we should learn from them.

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

You have people voting multiple times, illegal immigrants voting, and a two-party system that "primaries" the fixes to leave the problems in power.

And you have evidence of this?

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

You can also look at other countries that have a vibrant middle class, widespread opportunity, and better financial oversight.

That might work at the state level. The problem is that the USA is too large to implement those European ideas as national cookie-cutters. That's one of the reasons why state rights are so championed by the right wing: easier to execute.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

And you have evidence of this?

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/guyben...r-voting-multiple-times-for-landrieu-n1925809

Also, look at any of the activities of ACORN.

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

It's winter. Your windows have cracks. The solution is not to punch out the windows, it's to get new ones.

Wrong metaphor.

You have a glorious tree that is being choked out by suckers (e.g. tree climbing ivy) to the point where all you can see is ivy, not tree. What do you do? Chop back the ivy and let the tree flourish again.

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

Is the ivy representative of wall street?

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

Is the ivy representative of wall street?

The tree is the American people. The ivy is Government. And as I said before:

... today it (government) is the tool for wealth on the Left and the Right to rig the game to their outcome.

This is where my Libertarian streak tends to show up: Smaller, less power-consolidated government is now the only available counter-action to the mess we've allowed to fester and grow.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

Wrong metaphor.

You have a glorious tree that is being choked out by suckers (e.g. tree climbing ivy) to the point where all you can see is ivy, not tree. What do you do? Chop back the ivy and let the tree flourish again.

That's the cover story they use to keep you fighting against your interests and for theirs. Don't take my word for it, just look at the recent economic history of the United States since a large number of people fell for, er, adopted that viewpoint.

As long as the people were the government, big business had reason to fear. So they created an ideology where people would attack or at least lose interest in government, so they could take it over.

Whenever people say "I hate government" they're saying "I hate democracy." The only other effective power is the business world, which is just as bureaucratic, just as rentier, just as corrupt... but is also anti-democratic.

If you would like to see people free to pursue their own interests, you are backing exactly the wrong horse, at least at this time in history.

 

[unofan]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

The tree is the American people. The ivy is Government. And as I said before:

So what's big business in this analogy? The emerald ash borer? Some other pest which does as much or more destruction than the ivy while hidden away from plain sight?