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Gender Studies I

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LynahFan said:
I'm not saying the feelings are invalid or bigoted. I'm saying that the feelings don't matter. White people *feel* oppressed when their privilege is revoked. That feeling is real and understandable and I don't think it automatically means that they hate [minority of choice]. The fact that a change in the order of things (revocation of privilege) makes them feel bad is no reason to halt said change. I empathize with those 4th place finishers, but their "right" to feel the glory of 3rd place doesn't trump someone else's right to participate.
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Except in the case of sports, it's not like the women's division is the privileged class, so comparing this situation to white privilege is missing the point. It's more like segregated baseball back in the day, and the women's division is the equivalent of the Negro Leagues in this analogy. The Negro Leagues ultimately integrated after Jackie Robinson had already signed with the Dodgers, but I can't imagine the players were all that thrilled about giving up a spot for a white guy.

And I understand transwomen aren't coming from a position of privilege in terms of overall society, but in the specific and narrow context of physical attributes as related to sporting competitions, they absolutely are thanks to their Y chromosome.

Edit: I'm with dx that the governing bodies for each sport should decide the rules. I can pick out extreme situations on each side where I think the answer should be clear cut, but I have no idea where the line in between should be.
 
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unofan said:
Except in the case of sports, it's not like the women's division is the privileged class, so comparing this situation to white privilege is missing the point. It's more like segregated baseball back in the day, and the women's division is the equivalent of the Negro Leagues in this analogy. The Negro Leagues ultimately integrated after Jackie Robinson had already signed with the Dodgers, but I can't imagine the players were all that thrilled about giving up a spot for a white guy.

And I understand transwomen aren't coming from a position of privilege in terms of overall society, but in the specific and narrow context of physical attributes as related to sporting competitions, they absolutely are thanks to their Y chromosome.

Edit: I'm with dx that the governing bodies for each sport should decide the rules. I can pick out extreme situations on each side where I think the answer should be clear cut, but I have no idea where the line in between should be.
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In my opinion the Negro league comparison is not a good analogy at all. The Negro leagues were born from racism. Womens divisions in athletics were undoubtedly created so that women would have an equal opportunity to participate and compete on a level playing field. Lets be honest, if there were not women's teams and divisions in sports, very few women would make teams in high school, college or win races etc etc.
 
ericredaxe said:
In my opinion the Negro league comparison is not a good analogy at all. The Negro leagues were born from racism. Womens divisions in athletics were undoubtedly created so that women would have an equal opportunity to participate and compete on a level playing field. Lets be honest, if there were not women's teams and divisions in sports, very few women would make teams in high school, college or win races etc etc.
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It’s a perfectly fine analogy (which is to say, not 100% perfect). When Jackie Robinson joined MLB, some white guy somewhere lost a roster spot. Call him Bob. Bob’s “right“ to play in MLB does not justify discrimination against an entire class of people. Same for trans women joining women’s sports. Yes, of course they may bump some people from their current place in the hierarchy, but that does not justify discrimination against an entire class of people.
 
LynahFan said:
It’s a perfectly fine analogy (which is to say, not 100% perfect). When Jackie Robinson joined MLB, some white guy somewhere lost a roster spot. Call him Bob. Bob’s “right“ to play in MLB does not justify discrimination against an entire class of people. Same for trans women joining women’s sports. Yes, of course they may bump some people from their current place in the hierarchy, but that does not justify discrimination against an entire class of people.
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Apart from "Bob" getting bumped by Jackie Robinson - the entire premise and reasons for the Negro league existing at all were totally different from the reason we have women's divisions in sports - which is what makes it a poor analogy.
 
LynahFan said:
It’s a perfectly fine analogy (which is to say, not 100% perfect). When Jackie Robinson joined MLB, some white guy somewhere lost a roster spot. Call him Bob. Bob’s “right“ to play in MLB does not justify discrimination against an entire class of people. Same for trans women joining women’s sports. Yes, of course they may bump some people from their current place in the hierarchy, but that does not justify discrimination against an entire class of people.
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I guarantee it runs up against a category error that people are making. They think that while blacks are people and therefore they should be allowed to play in the majors, trans women aren't women and thus shouldn't be allowed to compete in a women's league. That's what it comes down to: the denial that a trans woman is a woman. Since, as we've beaten to death, the question of physical strength or skill doesn't enter into it because we are perfectly okay with stronger, more skilled women pushing out less strong, less skilled women.

These people are all circling back to: a trans woman isn't "really" a woman. It's the J. K. Rowling Fallacy dressed up a different way.

Miss T is a woman, same as my mom. Full stop. My mom is allowed to play in the WNBA and so is Miss T, while I am not. There is no need for any more nuanced or complex analysis than that.
 
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ericredaxe said:
Apart from "Bob" getting bumped by Jackie Robinson - the entire premise and reasons for the Negro league existing at all were totally different from the reason we have women's divisions in sports - which is what makes it a poor analogy.
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You are missing the point. The fact that it is a woman's league means a trans woman qualifies simply because she is a woman. Even if trans women were somehow physically superior and dominated the league (which they aren't and will not) it is no more "unfair" than Kenyans and Ethiopians dominating distance running.

The Negro League analogy is poor -- it obscures the issue because the purpose of the league was not to protect white or black players but to segregate them. The purpose of women's leagues was to protect them from the domination of their sports space by men. To disallow a trans woman from that space would be denying her that protection and violating her identity as a woman.

Your arguments are logically indefensible. All that is left is your unspoken assumptions, which are, perhaps unknown to you, transphobic.

But Miss T has told you guys this 100 times, much better than I ever could, so why not just S.T.F.U. and LISTEN to her.
 
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Observing:

Inevitably, regardless of particular issue, trans voices are left out of the conversation, or they're shouted over by cis people and their feelings, opinions, and concerns.

The view that trans women can't participate because cis women need to be protected is misogynistic. Cis women don't need to be protected from us. In several cases, it's not the cis woman upset with competing against a trans woman, it's a cishet dudebro who thinks his opinion is the final word on the subject. See Rogan, Joe. Right wing news sites are full of these stories, and with high school athletics, it's often the parents complaining about trans athletes.
And again, I'm reminded that current logic says if a trans girl attempts to compete at 15 (trans people have a stronger sense of identity than most), she's cheating and it's not fair to the other girls. If a trans woman attempts to compete at 26, jumping through several hoops just to enter the competition, hoops which are humiliating and degrading, hoops which cishet dudebros set up, she's still cheating and it's not fair to the other women.

And it's the current logic that is making right wingers in red states ram through several vicious and cruel trans sports bans, including subjecting children to genital inspections.
 
To observe your observation a little, this forum is mostly white middle class dudes talking to other white middle class dudes, isn't it? So any topic would have the same makeup.



I agree with your overall point though, that perhaps I (speaking only for me here) am not the best person to be making decisions regarding what trans folks should or should not be "allowed" to do, outside obviously criminal behavior.
 
Swansong said:
To observe your observation a little, this forum is mostly white middle class dudes talking to other white middle class dudes, isn't it? So any topic would have the same makeup.



I agree with your overall point though, that perhaps I (speaking only for me here) am not the best person to be making decisions regarding what trans folks should or should not be "allowed" to do, outside obviously criminal behavior.
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Before my boob job, several cis women whined at me about how their back hurt and I was going to regret it and I shouldn't. Eventually, I started telling them to shut the hell up and take an ibuprofen if their back hurt.
 
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