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Gender Studies I

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Swansong said:
To the bolded... I mean, duh, right? (not being snarky)


I understand how tired this conversation is, but I can assert two things:
  • I bring any of it up in good faith, in an effort to better educate myself on a topic I know virtually nothing of.
  • It's an important, if frustrating, discussion because most people don't even care to educate themselves on it, and if we're ever to attain anything even in the universe of approaching actual equality, we need to have it. A lot.
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Be careful - last time I (as a pretty big supporter of LGBTQ rights) tried to discuss trans-women in athletics in good faith I got told by several people on here that I was a trans-phobic Nazi.

edit: I should add that Ms T was not one who I reference and that (at least I thought) that she and I had a respectful discussion.
 
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ericredaxe said:
Be careful - last time I (as a pretty big supporter of LGBTQ rights) tried to discuss trans-women in athletics in good faith I got told by several people on here that I was a trans-phobic Nazi.
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Were you?

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ericredaxe said:
Be careful - last time I (as a pretty big supporter of LGBTQ rights) tried to discuss trans-women in athletics in good faith I got told by several people on here that I was a trans-phobic Nazi.

edit: I should add that Ms T was not one who I reference and that (at least I thought) that she and I had a respectful discussion.
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Of course MT didn't attack you. She isn't like that, and I'd guess that 99% of us are all about people behaving as they want to behave, LGBTQ, straight, the entire gamut, and only recognizing very broad restrictions.

HST, there are a few complete ass****s on here (chiefly KKKeplar, an actual intellectual Nazi) who want to quash rational discussions of this complex issue in a misguided effort pursuant to his/her obvious panties-in-a-bunch inferiority issues.

This is a topic we all need to consider as we move forward. As MT said below, I don't imagine it being anything Earth-shaking, but it's worth thrashing out. Certainly, there's a way ahead that we'll all find more or less equitable.
 
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MissThundercat said:
But it's a conversation where my community needs to have an equal voice at the table. Because right now, I'm not participating if my voice will be drowned out by an uneducated rube with an opinion.
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I very much understand and sympathize. It's absolutely not fair. But we aren't going to "sigh and roll our eyes" out of it. I'm sorry you have this burden.
 
"I'll make you squeal baby/as long as you pay me"- Lady Gaga

And the payoff for being part of a conversation on trans rights and issues, at least for the last almost 4 years, has been nothing more than a bunch of "visibility and awareness" campaigns and other empty gestures.

It's getting to a point where it's not worth my mental health. It's not worth being routinely told I don't know what I'm talking about. It's not worth being told to stop being so hysterical. It's not worth having to deal with the constant false narrative of "predatory and opportunistic cis men just taking advantage." It's not worth watching everyone else sit on their hands as that narrative is pushed.

As an advocate and as I pursue my MSW, I've learned I come first. I've learned I don't have to run into every fight. Just because cis people demand I sing and dance and juggle chainsaws for my mere existence doesn't mean I have to do any of that.
 
The main issue here in the US regarding trans-athletes isn't so much going to be "Elite" level competition (International, NCAA, etc.).

Its going to be High School level sports, and there are absolutely biological advantages that need to be addressed and that muck up the waters in terms of "fairness". The issue isn't going to be that someone is just saying that they are a girl just to win. But odds are that person is going to have a distinct biological position compared to the competition and that isn't exactly a fair deal.

At that level you will NEVER see any sort of advanced hormonal testing that you see with the IOC, NCAA, etc. You are also dealing with athletes who are likely within a year or two of their push to transition. In many cases, its someone who is "biologically male", and fundamentally that just isn't fair. Just look at times for Track & Field events at that level. As a whole, Female times are 15-20% slower/shorter than males. That's a distinct advantage for someone who recently transitioned and hasn't made hormonal changes.
 
MissThundercat said:
"I'll make you squeal baby/as long as you pay me"- Lady Gaga

And the payoff for being part of a conversation on trans rights and issues, at least for the last almost 4 years, has been nothing more than a bunch of "visibility and awareness" campaigns and other empty gestures.

It's getting to a point where it's not worth my mental health. It's not worth being routinely told I don't know what I'm talking about. It's not worth being told to stop being so hysterical. It's not worth having to deal with the constant false narrative of "predatory and opportunistic cis men just taking advantage." It's not worth watching everyone else sit on their hands as that narrative is pushed.

As an advocate and as I pursue my MSW, I've learned I come first. I've learned I don't have to run into every fight. Just because cis people demand I sing and dance and juggle chainsaws for my mere existence doesn't mean I have to do any of that.
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I'm not in the business of telling people what they should feel, so I won't. I very much understand how taxing this is. Or, I should say, I understand that it is taxing, because I absolutely don't and can't understand what you feel. Suffice to say that I believe you completely and understand why you aren't interested in this. Not everyone needs to fight every battle.

But "we" do. Society does. That's how things change. Too slowly, but steadily.

Hugs and handpounds and all that to you.






fake edit: if you can actually juggle chainsaws and are keeping that from the world, then that's an unforgiveable sin, and one I will absolutely judge you for.
 
MissThundercat said:
"I'll make you squeal baby/as long as you pay me"- Lady Gaga

And the payoff for being part of a conversation on trans rights and issues, at least for the last almost 4 years, has been nothing more than a bunch of "visibility and awareness" campaigns and other empty gestures.

It's getting to a point where it's not worth my mental health. It's not worth being routinely told I don't know what I'm talking about. It's not worth being told to stop being so hysterical. It's not worth having to deal with the constant false narrative of "predatory and opportunistic cis men just taking advantage." It's not worth watching everyone else sit on their hands as that narrative is pushed.

As an advocate and as I pursue my MSW, I've learned I come first. I've learned I don't have to run into every fight. Just because cis people demand I sing and dance and juggle chainsaws for my mere existence doesn't mean I have to do any of that.
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Soldier can't fight if solider's not right.

Like the parent in the airplane, put your air mask on first before you deal with those in your care.
 
RaceBoarder said:
The main issue here in the US regarding trans-athletes isn't so much going to be "Elite" level competition (International, NCAA, etc.).

Its going to be High School level sports, and there are absolutely biological advantages that need to be addressed and that muck up the waters in terms of "fairness". The issue isn't going to be that someone is just saying that they are a girl just to win. But odds are that person is going to have a distinct biological position compared to the competition and that isn't exactly a fair deal.

At that level you will NEVER see any sort of advanced hormonal testing that you see with the IOC, NCAA, etc. You are also dealing with athletes who are likely within a year or two of their push to transition. In many cases, its someone who is "biologically male", and fundamentally that just isn't fair. Just look at times for Track & Field events at that level. As a whole, Female times are 15-20% slower/shorter than males. That's a distinct advantage for someone who recently transitioned and hasn't made hormonal changes.
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Bingo.

Hormonal advantages -in terms of athleticism- are completely obvious at any post-pubescent age.

But prepare to be excoriated on this thread just the same. King Keppers the Toadie will admonish you to ignore that fact.
 
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I don’t have the genetics to compete in, well, anything athletic. How is it fair that there are entire leagues where I can’t compete? It’s the nature of sports that most people can’t compete at a high level. This is not news. Welcome to the rest of the 99% of us. Come on in - the water’s fine.
 
LynahFan said:
I don’t have the genetics to compete in, well, anything athletic. How is it fair that there are entire leagues where I can’t compete? It’s the nature of sports that most people can’t compete at a high level. This is not news. Welcome to the rest of the 99% of us. Come on in - the water’s fine.
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That's easy for you or me to say with our Y chromosomes. But when an XX female finishes 4th loses a spot on a podium in a women's division to someone with a Y chromosome who may have just begun hormone replacement therapy and is still benefiting from their natural testosterone, I can at least understand the gripe. If your response is that winning or losing at most levels doesn't or shouldn't matter more than ensuring eligibility to compete, that's a rational counterpoint, especially depending on the level of competition involved. But claiming that 4th place finisher's feelings of unfairness are invalid or inherently bigoted is not.

When high school boys' teams regularly compete with and defeat Olympic women's teams, that strikes me as a pretty clear sign that you can't just wave away the effects of biology when it comes to physical competitions.
 
I tend to agree. Which is why I think every sport should regulate itself. If NCAA Women's hockey wants to let a trans woman compete, that's perfectly ok. If they don't, I think that's ok as well. We're all fine to pick other sports if we don't like the rules the governing bodies set.

For a lot of athletes with asthma, you need to be super careful about what meds you take because some governing bodies let you take some and not others. Same for a wide variety of pharmaceuticals. So it's up to the sport and athlete to make up their minds on who gets to play, what drugs they can take, and the athletes can decide whether they want to pick that sport or tell the governing body to eat shit.
 
unofan said:
That's easy for you or me to say with our Y chromosomes. But when an XX female finishes 4th loses a spot on a podium in a women's division to someone with a Y chromosome who may have just begun hormone replacement therapy and is still benefiting from their natural testosterone, I can at least understand the gripe. If your response is that winning or losing at most levels doesn't or shouldn't matter more than ensuring eligibility to compete, that's a rational counterpoint, especially depending on the level of competition involved. But claiming that 4th place finisher's feelings of unfairness are invalid or inherently bigoted is not.

When high school boys' teams regularly compete with and defeat Olympic women's teams, that strikes me as a pretty clear sign that you can't just wave away the effects of biology when it comes to physical competitions.
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I'm not saying the feelings are invalid or bigoted. I'm saying that the feelings don't matter. White people *feel* oppressed when their privilege is revoked. That feeling is real and understandable and I don't think it automatically means that they hate [minority of choice]. The fact that a change in the order of things (revocation of privilege) makes them feel bad is no reason to halt said change. I empathize with those 4th place finishers, but their "right" to feel the glory of 3rd place doesn't trump someone else's right to participate.
 
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