Gender Studies I

[The Rube]

Re: Gender Studies I

The best villains are usually the ones who either don't know or refuse to admit they're the baddies. Think Lawful Evil - Claude Frollo, Inspector Javert, Dolores Umbridge, Carrie's mother, and yes, Mike Pence.

They know. They refuse to acknowledge.

Best villians, fictitious or not: the ones that know they are bad, don't care, and are smart enough to do their thing, for at least a while.
Joker, Dahmer, Buffalo Bill/Lecter, Ed Gein, Jack The Ripper, etc.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Gender Studies I

The best villains are usually the ones who either don't know or refuse to admit they're the baddies.

"A villain is just a hero in the wrong story."

Star Trek TOS exemplified this beautifully in one of its best episodes, "The Conscience of the King," written by the lamentably underrated Barry Trivers.

I love multi-dimensional villains who give a compelling reason for their actions. They are wrong, perhaps lethally, but they are interestingly wrong; often they are better people than the plodding unimaginative muscle head hero who thwarts them -- they are just tragically flawed.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Gender Studies I

"A villain is just a hero in the wrong story."

Star Trek TOS exemplified this beautifully in one of its best episodes, "The Conscience of the King," written by the lamentably underrated Barry Trivers.

I love multi-dimensional villains who give compelling reason for their actions. They are wrong, perhaps lethally, but they are interestingly wrong; often they are better people than the plodding unimaginative muscle head hero who thwarts them -- they are just tragically flawed.

I'm sure most of it is just personal taste, but I've always liked stories where I wasn't sure whether I was rooting for the villain or not.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Gender Studies I

I'm sure most of it is just personal taste, but I've always liked stories where I wasn't sure whether I was rooting for the villain or not.

Same here.

But I was rooting for Thanos. His only mistake was thinking small.

 

[RaceBoarder]

Re: Gender Studies I

I don't think that it's needed to be "rooting for" an antagonist, but you have to understand their motives.

Kep mentioned Thanos, but another villain in the MCU that really shows this is Daredevil's Wilson Fisk (The best of the MCU in this category). You learn about his character in depth. From an outside perspective, his goals are obviously nefarious, but when you step into his shoes, you can totally relate to why he makes each and every move he does. It's a balance of those perspectives that creates the compelling narrative. "You don't have to agree, but you can understand it" is how I would summarize this.

 

[The Rube]

Re: Gender Studies I

I don't think that it's needed to be "rooting for" an antagonist, but you have to understand their motives.

Kep mentioned Thanos, but another villain in the MCU that really shows this is Daredevil's Wilson Fisk (The best of the MCU in this category). You learn about his character in depth. From an outside perspective, his goals are obviously nefarious, but when you step into his shoes, you can totally relate to why he makes each and every move he does. It's a balance of those perspectives that creates the compelling narrative. "You don't have to agree, but you can understand it" is how I would summarize this.

Keep it simple. Look at organized crime, specifically the old school organizations. La Cosa Nostra. They were the police for the bad guys, even though LCN were a bunch of bad guys.

It's a different way of working things out, and illegal compared to normal society, but there was a moral standard. There were rules.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Gender Studies I

It's a different way of working things out, and illegal compared to normal society, but there was a moral standard. There were rules.

Not really, though. The whole idea that mobsters have a code is mostly bunk for selling books and movies. They're extortionists and killers, and they prey within their community as much as on others.

Political terrorists are a different story: they provide social support to rally support to The Cause. But crooks are just crooks, even if they dress sharp. I grew up with these people. F-ck em all.

 

[The Rube]

Re: Gender Studies I

Not really, though. The whole idea that mobsters have a code is mostly bunk for selling books and movies. They're extortionists and killers, and they prey within their community as much as on others.

Political terrorists are a different story: they provide social support to rally support to The Cause. But crooks are just crooks, even if they dress sharp. I grew up with these people. F-ck em all.

Don't get me wrong. They are evil. They just adhere to different rules.Are they moral rules, as we see them? Nope.

 

[RaceBoarder]

Re: Gender Studies I

Keep it simple. Look at organized crime, specifically the old school organizations. La Cosa Nostra. They were the police for the bad guys, even though LCN were a bunch of bad guys.

It's a different way of working things out, and illegal compared to normal society, but there was a moral standard. There were rules.

Yes and no. I'm just thinking from a narrative perspective. Fisk was fresh in my mind because I'm doing a rewatch of Daredevil Season 1 right now and he is a textbook example of what I'm describing.

You can have a gangster that is a "generic" villain very easily. Where the talent comes in is when the author is able to paint the picture on both sides of the line. Being able to show the "why" in reference to how they turned to the criminal lifestyle. Being able to show why the mob was the lone bright light in an otherwise dark neighborhood in the eyes of the common residents. You need to be able to understand and relate to the character's choices even though they may not be ones that you would personally make.

In Amber's case, do something like dig into reasons why the evangelical turned to religion. Show, don't tell why they want to please the Being in the Sky. Do this to where it's not a blind leap at any point along the way when the reader stops to think about that character's actions. That's where the story gets it's depth because you can debate the actions in question. Think of two people debating whether they are looking at a 6 or 9 when they are standing on opposite sides of the drawing.

 

[The Rube]

Re: Gender Studies I

I recently rewatched DD also. You don't have to agree with it, just understand the reasoning. I understood where Fisk was coming from. I understand where LCN was coming from.

Oddly, I understand where the cartels are coming from, but that is just on another level.

Re-reading "Red Mafiya" and there is a quote in there from a Genovese (IIRC) informant: We Italians? We'll kill you. But the Russians, they'll kill your whole family. They're crazy."

Think about that line of thinking.

And THEN think: the cartels, they'll kill anyone you've ever known.

 

[MissThundercat]

Re: Gender Studies I

One thing that's bothering me lately:

I post a full makeup and nice dress picture to social media: "oh, you're so pretty."

I get vocal about trans rights on social media: "uhhhh, we don't want to hear that. Tone it down. That celebrity didn't mean it like that. You're just paranoid."

 

[Kepler]

Re: Gender Studies I

Re-reading "Red Mafiya" and there is a quote in there from a Genovese (IIRC) informant: We Italians? We'll kill you. But the Russians, they'll kill your whole family. They're crazy."

I remember a great line from a documentary I saw about the Brighton bratva. "The Italians play boche to relax. The Russians play chess."

There was also a reference to a memo one of the pakhans had to send about beat-ins because "too many of our new men are being blinded."

 

[MissThundercat]

Re: Gender Studies I

A. I shelved all my creative writing for awhile.

B. I'm starting to feel like I'm the one my cisgender friends point at and say "I'm not transphobic, I have a trans friend."

C. Special message for my cisgender, heterosexual friends:

Listen.

When I tell you Dave Chappelle's humor is transphobic, listen.

When I tell you that JK Rowling is a TERF, listen.

When I tell you it's not up to you to decide whether they/them pronouns are appropriate grammar, listen.

When I tell you that a lot of men on social media and on dating sites only like me because they have a massive trans fetish, and this is why I'm hesitant to give men a chance, listen.

When I tell you I am fearful of interviewing for a job because I don't know how the employer is with transgender people, listen.

When I tell you I am scared to use the bathroom in public because I might get beat up, listen.

When I tell you "Trump/Pence/Lindsay Graham are secretly gay and they like it in the butt" jokes aren't funny and are really homophobic, listen.

When I tell you trans girls of all ages shouldn't have to jump through several hoops to compete as a female in their sport, listen.

When I tell you I am scared I could lose my job at any time because I am trans, listen.

When I tell you straight pride parades aren't funny any more and really need to stop, listen.

When I tell you I have to fear if my doctor will one day refuse to treat me because of his religious liberty, listen.

And here's the thing. You say trans women owe you an education. We've been trying to educate you. Instead, you dismiss what we say and then try and explain it back to us, saying we're just paranoid, or that celebrity didn't mean it like that. or telling us to tone it down. Part of being a good accomplice is listening. You cannot love us and you cannot support us until you know what makes us hurt. Until you know what we're afraid of. Until you know what we'd like to see. Until you know what we need to see.

But until you're willing to listen... go ahead and like my selfies, I guess, but I can't really count on you.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Gender Studies I

Brilliant as always.

 

[MissThundercat]

Re: Gender Studies I

I really do not want to know the mental gymnastics men do when they hear "I've had a real bad experience with men on social media and on dating sites and as such, I am hesitant to give them a chance" and turn that into "why do you hate men so much?"

And this is my honest experience with men on dating sites: either trying like hell to **** me or they start talking to me, discover I'm trans, and block me. Furthermore, when I ask the horn dogs about intimacy and affection, they're all "we can't give you that." If you're not going to give me what I need, I'm not putting out for you.

 

[The Rube]

Re: Gender Studies I

I really do not want to know the mental gymnastics men do when they hear "I've had a real bad experience with men on social media and on dating sites and as such, I am hesitant to give them a chance" and turn that into "why do you hate men so much?"

And this is my honest experience with men on dating sites: either trying like hell to **** me or they start talking to me, discover I'm trans, and block me. Furthermore, when I ask the horn dogs about intimacy and affection, they're all "we can't give you that." If you're not going to give me what I need, I'm not putting out for you.

I've used dating sites in the past, and the women (most likely) didn't believe me when I said: I'd like to take you to dinner, and get to know you.

Not all of us are out for a quick lay. Jerkfaces ruined it for a lot of people.

 

[Deutsche Gopher Fan]

I really do not want to know the mental gymnastics men do when they hear "I've had a real bad experience with men on social media and on dating sites and as such, I am hesitant to give them a chance" and turn that into "why do you hate men so much?"

And this is my honest experience with men on dating sites: either trying like hell to **** me or they start talking to me, discover I'm trans, and block me. Furthermore, when I ask the horn dogs about intimacy and affection, they're all "we can't give you that." If you're not going to give me what I need, I'm not putting out for you.

Dating sucks. I wish I had inspiring words to offer you.

I left the east coast and came back to Midwest at 30- young in east coast time, spoiled milk for Midwest. Add to that I earned more than many of the men I met online and it lead to issues. Then I dated someone who could be so cruel, I’ve not even attempted to date in five years. Maybe someday...

The battles are different, but I feel you.

 

[The Rube]

Re: Gender Studies I

Dating sucks. I wish I had inspiring words to offer you.

I left the east coast and came back to Midwest at 30- young in east coast time, spoiled milk for Midwest. Add to that I earned more than many of the men I met online and it lead to issues. Then I dated someone who could be so cruel, I’ve not even attempted to date in five years. Maybe someday...

The battles are different, but I feel you.

That part really pizzed me off when reading.....who the F cares???

 

[Deutsche Gopher Fan]

That part really pizzed me off when reading.....who the F cares???

This is certainly an indictment on the men...but you’d be surprised. It causes hard feelings even in well educated white collar men.

I once had a date with a Harvard mba (I know, I know, my fault) and he calmly explained to me how His future wife had to work and earn money- but preferably nothing more than 75k. Also preferably not less

 

[The Rube]

Re: Gender Studies I

This is certainly an indictment on the men...but you’d be surprised. It causes hard feelings even in well educated white collar men.

I once had a date with a Harvard mba (I know, I know, my fault) and he calmly explained to me how His future wife had to work and earn money- but preferably nothing more than 75k. Also preferably not less

Dafuq? Real men don't give a sh*, much less two sh*s.