Fire Mike Eaves?

[Chuck Schwartz]

Re: Fire Mike Eaves?

The issue was that they were committed to staying at UW for as little time as possible before moving on to the NHL, most likely only one season. If they had come to UW with the intention of staying until they were ready for the next level then it wouldn't have been an issue.

I want players who want to be at UW because it is UW and not just because it is the shortest pit stop on the way to the NHL.

If Turris was looking for the shortest pit stop to the NHL, he would have taken the (rumored) six figure offer from the Vancouver Giants of the WHL instead of playing for Burnaby and then coming to Wisconsin for a year. I'm not sure what changed, whether it be advice from his agent (Kurt Overhardt), or the alure of Gretzky, but something changed as I don't believe he ever planned on being a one and done.

From a Wisconsin perspective, when he committed at 15 the kid wasn't even projected as a first round draft pick, let alone a top 5 pick. Hell, even going into his draft year he was a bubble first rounder. UW had no reason to believe he was a one and done when they offered him at 15.

 

[Almington]

Exactly, and it's because of the CBA that was signed after the 2004-05 lockout. It became significantly more financially viable for NHL teams to poach college talent and play them. The reason they need to do it is because that's when the NHL implemented the salary cap. In order to pay the top guys 7-8 million a year, they need to offset that with cheap talent and they can do that easily by pulling out NCAA guys for pennies on the dollar. The reason they pull them early is because they are cheap talent. It's about dollars, not ability.

I don't think it's an either or issue. Just about every player in the NHL playing on an ELC is underpaid and college players are just another source of cheap talent. The key is that it IS talent and the NHL has become aware of this to the point that teams that don't scout college well are at a disadvantage (same can also be said of Europe) because they are missing out on a source of about 25% of the players (about another 25% is European).

My opinion is that the NHL/AHL, college, and MJ are as alike now as they have ever been. Sure, differences still exist but all three have attempted to cut down on obstruction and put the spotlight on the skill level. I also think the the easy of video sharing and level of communication and interaction between the three has helped to erase many of the differences in ideology as people copy and implement what works.

 

[Chuck Schwartz]

Re: Fire Mike Eaves?

I don't think it's an either or issue. Just about every player in the NHL playing on an ELC is underpaid and college players are just another source of cheap talent. The key is that it IS talent and the NHL has become aware of this to the point that teams that don't scout college well are at a disadvantage (same can also be said of Europe) because they are missing out on a source of about 25% of the players (about another 25% is European).

My opinion is that the NHL/AHL, college, and MJ are as alike now as they have ever been. Sure, differences still exist but all three have attempted to cut down on obstruction and put the spotlight on the skill level. I also think the the easy of video sharing and level of communication and interaction between the three has helped to erase many of the differences in ideology as people copy and implement what works.

I don't disagree with what you're saying but the MJ kids were getting signed regardless as they have to be signed to NHL ELC's at 20 anyways so they're already in the system. The significant increase in college players being signed was more financial than talent. With the implement of the salary cap teams needed to get creative on balancing the dollars, and college is a good source of cheap talent. Obviously the talent level in college has been on an upward trend which adds to it, there's no denying that.

 

[Almington]

If Turris was looking for the shortest pit stop to the NHL, he would have taken the (rumored) six figure offer from the Vancouver Giants of the WHL instead of playing for Burnaby and then coming to Wisconsin for a year. I'm not sure what changed, whether it be advice from his agent (Kurt Overhardt), or the alure of Gretzky, but something changed as I don't believe he ever planned on being a one and done.

From a Wisconsin perspective, when he committed at 15 the kid wasn't even projected as a first round draft pick, let alone a top 5 pick. Hell, even going into his draft year he was a bubble first rounder. UW had no reason to believe he was a one and done when they offered him at 15.

I think what happened was that he was effectively anointed by Gretzky as the next great player and that was pressure that he couldn't resist. Maybe he didn't get the best advice from his "advisor".

Skille and kessel were always going to be compared to each other and once Kessel left UMN, I think that Skille felt a lot of pressure to keep up with Kessel. I think the Skille's injury in 06-07 didn't help matters as it highlighted the risks of staying at UW.

Perhaps I'm being ovely harsh to both of them considering I don't have any real first hand knowledge of what they were going through.

I still believe the one-and-done players should in general be avoided. It's hard for any top 10 pick to resist the pressures that they are facing of making the step to the NHL until they are ready.

 

[Almington]

I don't disagree with what you're saying but the MJ kids were getting signed regardless as they have to be signed to NHL ELC's at 20 anyways so they're already in the system. The significant increase in college players being signed was more financial than talent. With the implement of the salary cap teams needed to get creative on balancing the dollars, and college is a good source of cheap talent. Obviously the talent level in college has been on an upward trend which adds to it, there's no denying that.

If the talent level in college was not comparable to MJ the players would not be signed. The MJ teams would generate more than enough cheap young talent to feed the NHL if the college players were not equally talented.

 

[Chuck Schwartz]

Re: Fire Mike Eaves?

I think what happened was that he was effectively anointed by Gretzky as the next great player and that was pressure that he couldn't resist. Maybe he didn't get the best advice from his "advisor".

Skille and kessel were always going to be compared to each other and once Kessel left UMN, I think that Skille felt a lot of pressure to keep up with Kessel. I think the Skille's injury in 06-07 didn't help matters as it highlighted the risks of staying at UW.

Perhaps I'm being ovely harsh to both of them considering I don't have any real first hand knowledge of what they were going through.

I still believe the one-and-done players should in general be avoided. It's hard for any top 10 pick to resist the pressures that they are facing of making the step to the NHL until they are ready.

You can't avoid the one-and-done players if you don't know they are going to be one-and-done. Like I said, Wisconsin had no clue Turris would leave after one year when they offered at 15. Same as Minnesota had no clue Erik Johnson would leave after one year or Minnesota Duluth with Justin Faulk. It's the risk you have to take to land elite talent. What are you going to avoid every top kid and end up like Wisconsin is this season with a lineup filled of grinders offensively that can't put the puck in the net?

As for Jack Skille, how is the Wisconsin coaching staff not supposed to take a local kid who's a first round talent? Were they not supposed to recruit Ryan Suter either?

A little silly don't you think?

 

[Almington]

You can't avoid the one-and-done players if you don't know they are going to be one-and-done. Like I said, Wisconsin had no clue Turris would leave after one year when they offered at 15. Same as Minnesota had no clue Erik Johnson would leave after one year or Minnesota Duluth with Justin Faulk. It's the risk you have to take to land elite talent. What are you going to avoid every top kid and end up like Wisconsin is this season with a lineup filled of grinders offensively that can't put the puck in the net?

As for Jack Skille, how is the Wisconsin coaching staff not supposed to take a local kid who's a first round talent? Were they not supposed to recruit Ryan Suter either?

A little silly don't you think?

It's not about avoiding talent, it's about avoiding the wrong attitudes. If you recruit a player at 15/16 and he develops into an elite talent who remains committed to the school or the elite local talents who want to play for the program they grew up idolizing, those are great problems to have but you have to be aware that those types of situations may come with additional distractions and headaches. If the player lets those acolades go to his head you can end up with a first year player telling the rest of the team that they are blowing it and had better step it up because this is the only chance for the one and done players to win.

Suter NEVER had the same level of circus/attention on him the same way that Skille and Turris did. Both Jack and Kyle are splendid young men (in fact both the Skille and Turris families are wonderful) who unfortunately got caught up in the hype a bit and may not have, in hindsight, made the most optimum career decisions for themselves at 19 (it's hard to say that signing an NHL contract and pursuing your dream is a bad decision, just when they signed might have not been the best). [FYI: Hell, I wish I had made some different decisions from 17-25].

I suppose that the thing I really wonder about is how well Eaves does in handling the different personalities and distractions of these types of situations and wonder if Eaves handled them as best they could be. Its a case where the HC has to put on his theripist/psychologist hat and connect with a player.

These are questions that we have no answer to and will never know.

 

[Crainer]

Re: Fire Mike Eaves?

Not going to defend Eaves, I think the coaching has been horrible, and obviously the D took a step back with Butters. Hopefully Walsh can do something with it this year.
That being said, the early departures I believe really forced Eaves hand in recruiting. Navin was brought in a year early, and I believe LeBate was a very late pick up as well. It is not that you don't expect some early departures, but it wasn't like Stephan and McDonnaugh left one day after the finals two years ago. If I remember correctly, left about 2 months before the season?? Pretty hard to react, and that close to the season, you take what you can get.

 

[Wisko McBadgerton]

Re: Fire Mike Eaves?

I enjoyed reading Almington and Chuck's late night discussion.

Earlier in this thread, before it started going sideways, there was discussion about who could replace Eaves. Seems like Gwoz is the consensus but it seems to me that might be a pretty difficult deal. I like the him and the Granato's too, but I thought maybe Mark Johnson would get a little love? I think Chuck was the only one to even mention him. I admit personally to being a bit of an MJ fan, and leaning toward him 11 years back, but I was wondering if there's any specifics as to why he doesn't seem to have much, if any, support amongst the knowledgeable folks here?

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: Fire Mike Eaves?

I enjoyed reading Almington and Chuck's late night discussion.

Earlier in this thread, before it started going sideways, there was discussion about who could replace Eaves. Seems like Gwoz is the consensus but it seems to me that might be a pretty difficult deal. I like the him and the Granato's too, but I thought maybe Mark Johnson would get a little love? I think Chuck was the only one to even mention him. I admit personally to being a bit of an MJ fan, and leaning toward him 11 years back, but I was wondering if there's any specifics as to why he doesn't seem to have much, if any, support amongst the knowledgeable folks here?

There are a lot of people who were down on him for falling behind a bit on recruiting in the end of his tenure with the men's program as an assistant. Other than that, I guess I'm not sure of any specific reason he wouldn't be a good candidate.

 

[Wisko McBadgerton]

Re: Fire Mike Eaves?

There are a lot of people who were down on him for falling behind a bit on recruiting in the end of his tenure with the men's program as an assistant. Other than that, I guess I'm not sure of any specific reason he wouldn't be a good candidate.

Eaves first class of freshman was the class with Tom Gilbert, Adam Burish, Nick Licari, Ryan MacMurchy, and A.J Degenhardt... I really can't remember now, if those guys would have all been strictly Eaves recruits? Seems like MJ and Sauer would have been involved there but I could be completely mistaken?

 

[Chuck Schwartz]

Re: Fire Mike Eaves?

There are a lot of people who were down on him for falling behind a bit on recruiting in the end of his tenure with the men's program as an assistant. Other than that, I guess I'm not sure of any specific reason he wouldn't be a good candidate.

I know for me personally and some others as well it's a personality thing. MJ just seems to have the perfect personality and temperament to coach the women's program. When I imagine MJ on the men's bench and coaching the guys I just don't feel like he's got the right vibe for that sort of thing. He's just such a soft spoken guy it's hard to imagine. Who knows, maybe I'm completely wrong and I guess we'll never know until he's in that spot.

 

[Almington]

Re: Fire Mike Eaves?

I enjoyed reading Almington and Chuck's late night discussion.

I think that I talked myself in a circle. It's not about avoiding the elite talents like Skille and Turris, it's about managing the ensuing hype, distractions, and conflicts that these types of players MAY bring to the team. That's the trade-off that needs to be balanced and some coaches are better at finding the appropriate balance than others.

 

[markwojo]

Re: Fire Mike Eaves?

Lots of different thoughts on here. First on one and done's...you take everyone you can get and to argue otherwise is silly. Bottomline is that there just are not that many one and done kids and no one school gets a bunch anyways. If you can't figure out how to recruit around an occasional one and done...you shouldn't be making 300-400K per year as a coach of a top D1 team. You recruit the best talent you can period...kids win more games then any coach can. Now that said...some of the best talent is also guys that are not prototypical NHL size and will likely be in college a while and you need your share of that kind of player also.

On who replaces Eaves if the plug actually gets pulled. Gwoz and Blasi would certainly need to be called to have a conversation to see if there is even a slim chance you could pry either away from their current situations. In the end, I doubt either is realistic. Blasi is an alumn and has spent 17 years either playing or coaching at Miami which seems to have committed the resources to have pretty darn good facilities and a situation for a coach. Granato is a name that would make sense. I'm less sold on Mark Johnson then when there last was an opening. There were the questions about how willing he was to put in the travel needed to recruit well and this is still a guy that has not ventured much outside of Madison since that time. This may seem politically incorrect, but coaching womans hockey for the last decade plus does not seem like it translates well to mens hockey.

 

[icebadger]

Re: Fire Mike Eaves?

I'm less sold on Mark Johnson then when there last was an opening. There were the questions about how willing he was to put in the travel needed to recruit well and this is still a guy that has not ventured much outside of Madison since that time. This may seem politically incorrect, but coaching womans hockey for the last decade plus does not seem like it translates well to mens hockey.

Honest question here, how much travel/recruiting does the head coach do in college hockey? The gist of reading these boards over the years is that it was the assistants who were out of town a lot.

 

[GB Puck Fan]

Re: Fire Mike Eaves?

Eaves first class of freshman was the class with Tom Gilbert, Adam Burish, Nick Licari, Ryan MacMurchy, and A.J Degenhardt... I really can't remember now, if those guys would have all been strictly Eaves recruits? Seems like MJ and Sauer would have been involved there but I could be completely mistaken?

They were Sauer recruits.

 

[Wisko McBadgerton]

Re: Fire Mike Eaves?

Thanks GB, that is what I was thinking. So you have those guys. I don't believe Pavelski was ever going anywhere but UW and he was such a great, smart, college player that you probably could plug a lot of guys in with him...

(Off topic, but thinking of Tom Gilbert-- that guy played the greatest defensive game I've ever see by a college player in that triple OT against Cornell. Maybe it was my partly my perspective (15 rows up behind Elliot 2/3 periods) but the number of times he stopped a Cornell rush by taking a guy off the puck, only to have the puck float in harmlessly across the endline, I don't know... seems like a hundred!)

But anyway... My feeling on Eaves is that I think he should be in the NHL/AHL. He's really pretty good at working with studs. (evidenced by the number of Badgers in the NHL) Developing middle to lower end guys just hasn't been his forte'.

In regards to MJ, (again I admit I'm kind of an MJ guy) I don't know exactly the answer to Icebadger's question, but wojo brings up possibe reluctance to travel for recruiting. I'd just say that 11 years later MJ is in a different position. His youngest child I believe will be 16 this year so I believe that's probably a lot less of an issue.

I guess my feeling overall about the college game is recruiting is super competitive, getting more so every year. Give me twenty top NHL picks and even I can coach them to a bunch of wins. But that's not likely to happen. A great roster is going to consist of a handful of studs and then a bunch of guys you have to DEVELOP from 3rd/4th liners into Jr./Sr. 2nd liners and leaders, which to me, is what is going to continue to separate the top teams. It's not basketball, where two guys can take you all the way.

In regards to Chuck's point about MJ's soft spoken personality... Yep. I definitely can see that... I haven't had a conversation with MJ in several years, but it's easy to wonder if he's 'tough' enough. I don't know really though if being externally tough and loud necessarily has anything to do with being a good coach. It's about connecting, motivating, and teaching. There's a lot of ways to go about it. I feel like he's a guy that's really strong in developing kids, a great teacher, and understands what it takes to reach your potential. Heck, just look at him as a player. You could argue at 20 he was the best big ice amateur goal scorer in the world, and I don't think it was because he was the most gifted (hockey) athlete in the world.

As to wojo's observation that he's coached the women for the last 11 years not translating... (Is that because it's harder? ) I think he's got plenty of hockey experience and knowledge, (plus he's still a name in hockey circles) but to me, ultimately the thing is, he's a winner. It's not like it's automatic just because he's at UW. His winning percentage (almost 85%) is ten points higher than the next closest active coach. (Add ten to Eaves' record and you've got Badger Bob) Give me a guy that's a proven winner every time. Heck, get me a Lou Holtz or Dean Smith. Those guys probably know absolutely nothing about hockey but I bet they could produce winners if they had to.

I could be totally wrong I admit, (and biased because as a kid I got to stay up late occasionally with my dad and watch a little of those great late 70's teams on PBS replay) and like Chuck says, we'll never know unless he's put in there. I don't even know if he'd want it? Besides, Eaves will probably get this team close to .500 and stick around.

 

[Scottyp]

Re: Fire Mike Eaves?

Was re-reading one of my favorite books the last couple of days and hit a great passage. The book was "From Red Ink to Roses", a book by Rick Telander (used to be editor of SI) on the two year period at the UW when we were cutting sports, tackling our deficit and hiring Alvarez to replace Morton and get the athletic department on track (1990 - 1992). In one of the many stories, he talks about hockey and a drill the team used to run to work on their creativity. Apparently, the team would stand at the center line, and each player would take a penalty shot. Except the rule was you had to be creative. When it was Sean Hill's turn, he went up to the puck, thought for a second, dropped his pants to his knees and skated the puck toward the goalie and shot. Very creative.

Makes me wonder how Eaves works on creativity.

 

[Timothy A]

Re: Fire Mike Eaves?

Now BA is busy hiring a new FB and Volleyball coach. This bought Eaves a lot of time out of the spotlight.

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: Fire Mike Eaves?

Now BA is busy hiring a new FB and Volleyball coach. This bought Eaves a lot of time out of the spotlight.

In all fairness, I don't think the spotlight is very bright to begin with, as far as BA is concerned.