Fire Mike Eaves?

[Chuck Schwartz]

Re: Fire Mike Eaves?

Just a reminder, you only get 18 scholarships to pass around 26 players, and after goalies it's more like 16 scholarships to pass around for 23 players. Majority of these in-state kids (with the exception of McCabe) are likely on 1/2 or less.

 

[Almington]

I mean something has to give. UW fans want to really pin their hopes on just 2 players? Dvorak and Besse? I think it would take 2 each of these types (at least) in consecutive classes along with a Skille or two to really turn this around.

Bringing ANY players in directly from the WIAA has been, IMHO, the biggest mistakes the Eaves has made in the last few years. As a GENERAL rule, if a player isn't a first or second round NHL draft pick they just don't have the combination of skill, maturity, and experience to be a significant factor in the college game at 18 or 19.

I don't have a problem with offering to these kids early, but make it clear that they will have to spend AT least one (and often two) season playing in the ushl. You should NEVER be both an extraordinarily young team AND a team full of grinders and role players.

I don't think that either Turris or Skille should ever have played on game for UW. If a player does not intend to spend at least three seasons in college (I believe that Pavs, C Smith, and Stepan all initially intended to stay 3 years) they are going to be more of a distraction and effort than they add, IMHO again.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Bringing ANY players in directly from the WIAA has been, IMHO, the biggest mistakes the Eaves has made in the last few years. As a GENERAL rule, if a player isn't a first or second round NHL draft pick they just don't have the combination of skill, maturity, and experience to be a significant factor in the college game at 18 or 19.

I don't have a problem with offering to these kids early, but make it clear that they will have to spend AT least one (and often two) season playing in the ushl. You should NEVER be both an extraordinarily young team AND a team full of grinders and role players.

I don't think that either Turris or Skille should ever have played on game for UW. If a player does not intend to spend at least three seasons in college (I believe that Pavs, C Smith, and Stepan all initially intended to stay 3 years) they are going to be more of a distraction and effort than they add, IMHO again.

I agree with you 100% on the first point. Very few kids can come right from ANY highschool ANYWHERE and succeed right away in college. Not many Rau's or Bjugstad's out there. The Gophers got burnt a lot by this in their down period too. Kids need to be patient. It's in their best interest.

As to your second point on kids staying 3 years, I also mostly agree. However, I don't think there is much harm in recruiting some blue chip guys who will only stay a few years if A) they produce right away and B) it is balanced out by enough skilled guys who aren't prototypical NHL players who will stick around 3-4 years.

 

[oldtyme25]

Re: Fire Mike Eaves?

Just a reminder, you only get 18 scholarships to pass around 26 players, and after goalies it's more like 16 scholarships to pass around for 23 players. Majority of these in-state kids (with the exception of McCabe) are likely on 1/2 or less.

I think a better use of the partial scholarship dollars is offering to the best uncommitted 20 year olds early in the USHL season. They can be the cornerstone of your 4th line and 3rd defensive pair, while giving you some stronger more mature players (24-25 year old seniors) who will stick around for 4 years. Then you can concentrate on filling the other 9 forwards and 4 D with skill players, need to land more skill players!

 

[Chuck Schwartz]

Re: Fire Mike Eaves?

Bringing ANY players in directly from the WIAA has been, IMHO, the biggest mistakes the Eaves has made in the last few years. As a GENERAL rule, if a player isn't a first or second round NHL draft pick they just don't have the combination of skill, maturity, and experience to be a significant factor in the college game at 18 or 19.

I don't have a problem with offering to these kids early, but make it clear that they will have to spend AT least one (and often two) season playing in the ushl. You should NEVER be both an extraordinarily young team AND a team full of grinders and role players.

Wisconsin has only brought one player in straight from WIAA hockey during Eaves tenure and that's Brad Navin.

People around here forget that he initially committed for the 2013 recruiting class. The only reason that Navin was brought in (two years early), was that Jordy Murray abruptly left because the loophole that would allow him to play in Switzerland was going to be closing and he needed to leave when he did. At the time, none of the players recruited for the 2012 class could be accelerated to 2011 because they were still in high school. Navin was the only committed player who could be brought in early.

 

[oldtyme25]

Re: Fire Mike Eaves?

My issue was not about what year the instate players arrived to play. It was that Eaves continued to offer WIAA players scholly's before they had played any Junior hockey games. He will be paying the price for his decision to cast his lot with this group for a couple more years yet.

 

[Chuck Schwartz]

Re: Fire Mike Eaves?

FWIW, early departures since 2010:

Wisconsin--9
Boston U--8
Denver--7
Michigan State--5
North Dakota--4
Notre Dame--4
Boston College--4
Minnesota-Duluth--4

 

[gwhinwi]

Re: Fire Mike Eaves?

FWIW, early departures since 2010:

Wisconsin--9

One of the things that you have to wonder about that is whether some of those top prospects would have stuck around if there would have been a better team around them. Some of them might just get frustrated with being the only talented players on the team and that they were sold a different bill of goods when they were recruited.

Of course that's all just conjecture, but it is a possibility.

 

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: Fire Mike Eaves?

FWIW, early departures since 2010:

Wisconsin--9
Boston U--8
Denver--7
Michigan State--5
North Dakota--4
Notre Dame--4
Boston College--4
Minnesota-Duluth--4

I'm assuming these are just the numbers for players leaving early for the pros correct?

 

[Chuck Schwartz]

Re: Fire Mike Eaves?

I'm assuming these are just the numbers for players leaving early for the pros correct?

Yes, although I added Charlie Coyle to BU's number.

 

[Almington]

FWIW, early departures since 2010:

Wisconsin--9
Boston U--8
Denver--7
Michigan State--5
North Dakota--4
Notre Dame--4
Boston College--4
Minnesota-Duluth--4

5 of those were D, none of which were expected to stay more than 3 years.

That leaves the four forwards, three of whom left one year earlier than expected. And the other had been injury prone and done next to nothing at UW.

The problem with pointing out the early departures is that it just seems like another excuse. Like blaming graduations for having players leave, early departures are not the issue, unexpected departures are With the exception of Schultz, whos departure after last season was not unexpected, none would be on the team today and account for this current teams abysmal 1-9-1 record thus far. Or would you be pinning your hopes that Clark would have had an absolute monster year?

If they all played in the USHL than that is a remarkable streak and indicates that either the league is sufficiently shallow that success is a poor indicator of future potential or sub-par scouting in identifying those players (which I acknowledge is more art than science).

 

[solovsfett]

Re: Fire Mike Eaves?

Even though I know you hate me Solo, you are one of my favorite Badger posters. You are old school like I am, and a good dude. I'm sorry if I was a jerk to you in the past, and I hope the Badgers turn things around. Our rivalry isn't as fun when one of our programs are down.

I don't hate anyone on this board..I only get exasperated at times with certain lines of arguments, but that's neither here nor there. I agree with you UW and MN (also Nodak) need to be consistently great. and that's what made the rivalries in the 80's and early 90's fun

 

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: Fire Mike Eaves?

Yes, although I added Charlie Coyle to BU's number.

That's what I thought. 8 players eventually left early from the 2010-2011 North Dakota squad alone (Bruneteau, Cichy, Dell, Dickin, Gregoire, Hextall, Hill, and Nelson). Throw in Corey Fienhage following the 2010 season, and North Dakota has had 9 players leave early in that span. Of course, only 4 (Dell, Gregoire, Hextall, and Nelson) went immediately to the pros. Bruneteau (Vermont), Cichy (Western Michigan), Dickin (Manitoba), and Hill (WI-Superior?) transferred, and Fienhage went to the WHL (now plays in ECHL/AHL).

 

[Chuck Schwartz]

Re: Fire Mike Eaves?

5 of those were D, none of which were expected to stay more than 3 years.

That leaves the four forwards, three of whom left one year earlier than expected. And the other had been injury prone and done next to nothing at UW.

The problem with pointing out the early departures is that it just seems like another excuse. Like blaming graduations for having players leave, early departures are not the issue, unexpected departures are With the exception of Schultz, whos departure after last season was not unexpected, none would be on the team today and account for this current teams abysmal 1-9-1 record thus far. Or would you be pinning your hopes that Clark would have had an absolute monster year?

If they all played in the USHL than that is a remarkable streak and indicates that either the league is sufficiently shallow that success is a poor indicator of future potential or sub-par scouting in identifying those players (which I acknowledge is more art than science).

Simply pointing it out, nothing more than that. Wasn't saying that it has anything to do with the current team, but it has certainly had a significant effect over the past few seasons, specifically Stepan, Murray and Smith.

 

[Chuck Schwartz]

Re: Fire Mike Eaves?

That's what I thought. 8 players eventually left early from the 2010-2011 North Dakota squad alone (Bruneteau, Cichy, Dell, Dickin, Gregoire, Hextall, Hill, and Nelson). Throw in Corey Fienhage following the 2010 season, and North Dakota has had 9 players leave early in that span. Of course, only 4 (Dell, Gregoire, Hextall, and Nelson) went immediately to the pros. Bruneteau (Vermont), Cichy (Western Michigan), Dickin (Manitoba), and Hill (WI-Superior?) transferred, and Fienhage went to the WHL (now plays in ECHL/AHL).

Every school has natural attrition which is why I didn't include guys like Matt Thurber, etc. on the Wisconsin list and limited it to just pro departures.

 

[solovsfett]

Re: Fire Mike Eaves?

Bringing ANY players in directly from the WIAA has been, IMHO, the biggest mistakes the Eaves has made in the last few years. As a GENERAL rule, if a player isn't a first or second round NHL draft pick they just don't have the combination of skill, maturity, and experience to be a significant factor in the college game at 18 or 19.

I don't have a problem with offering to these kids early, but make it clear that they will have to spend AT least one (and often two) season playing in the ushl. You should NEVER be both an extraordinarily young team AND a team full of grinders and role players.

I don't think that either Turris or Skille should ever have played on game for UW. If a player does not intend to spend at least three seasons in college (I believe that Pavs, C Smith, and Stepan all initially intended to stay 3 years) they are going to be more of a distraction and effort than they add, IMHO again.

I definitely agree with you on that first point. players from the WIAA unless they're playing for Superior or maybe Northland Pines (eagle river) don't face consistently good or great teams so these wisconsin kids generally need 2 years seasoning in the USHL if they're going to make an impact in college, IF they make an impact.

Where I would disagree is Turris and Skille, I think they were great gets. However, they received terrible advice along the way, imo Turris should have stayed 3 years at UW and Skille probably all 4. In retrospect I wonder if they'd agree.

It's interesting how the NHL game has changed and now seems to favor college kids in style of play (less clutching and grabbing, etc)...it's made a significant impact at UW yes,but still you have to say 1/2 dozen coaches have found their way in the new landscape and Eaves needs to learn to navigate this quickly.

 

[Chuck Schwartz]

Re: Fire Mike Eaves?

It's interesting how the NHL game has changed and now seems to favor college kids in style of play (less clutching and grabbing, etc)...it's made a significant impact at UW yes,but still you have to say 1/2 dozen coaches have found their way in the new landscape and Eaves needs to learn to navigate this quickly.

I don't think the NHL game favors college kids style of play, it favors paying college kids pennies on the dollar on entry level contracts.

 

[solovsfett]

Re: Fire Mike Eaves?

I don't think the NHL game favors college kids style of play, it favors paying college kids pennies on the dollar on entry level contracts.

I don't know if I agree with that. I think the trend is the NHL actually picking up the good to great NCAA players far earlier than they ever used to more because they're recognizing the talent there. in years past guys like Rafalski not only stayed 4 years at their University but then had to go overseas to for more seasoning even (in Rafalski's case 4 more years IIRC). If Rafalski were in college today he'd probably be a 1 or 2 year guy.

 

[Almington]

Where I would disagree is Turris and Skille, I think they were great gets. However, they received terrible advice along the way, imo Turris should have stayed 3 years at UW and Skille probably all 4. In retrospect I wonder if they'd agree.

The issue was that they were committed to staying at UW for as little time as possible before moving on to the NHL, most likely only one season. If they had come to UW with the intention of staying until they were ready for the next level then it wouldn't have been an issue.

I want players who want to be at UW because it is UW and not just because it is the shortest pit stop on the way to the NHL.

 

[Chuck Schwartz]

Re: Fire Mike Eaves?

I don't know if I agree with that. I think the trend is the NHL actually picking up the good to great NCAA players far earlier than they ever used to more because they're recognizing the talent there. in years past guys like Rafalski not only stayed 4 years at their University but then had to go overseas to for more seasoning even (in Rafalski's case 4 more years IIRC). If Rafalski were in college today he'd probably be a 1 or 2 year guy.

Exactly, and it's because of the CBA that was signed after the 2004-05 lockout. It became significantly more financially viable for NHL teams to poach college talent and play them. The reason they need to do it is because that's when the NHL implemented the salary cap. In order to pay the top guys 7-8 million a year, they need to offset that with cheap talent and they can do that easily by pulling out NCAA guys for pennies on the dollar. The reason they pull them early is because they are cheap talent. It's about dollars, not ability.