Fascinating story on reality of OHL education packages vs NCAA

[OHLArenaGuide]

Re: Fascinating story on reality of OHL education packages vs NCAA

What is the difference between an athletic award and an athletic scholarship?

(Small) cash awards can be given for athletic or scholastic achievement, but it can't be a "scholarship" designed to help with tuition. Generally the awards total no more than a few hundred dollars.

Hicks may be critical and perhaps vindictive, but what he wrote really did shine some critical factual light on the somewhat shawdowy and misunderstood world of OHL education packages. I think it's important to realize that the OHL is out there taking some business risks by dabbling in education, but they are marketing it to prospects as if it were comparable to the NCAA's educational offer. It's apples and oranges. The OHL is in the hockey business, not the education business, and while some OHL players have taken advantage of the offer, it simply pales in comparison to the NCAA's educational offer. The facts are that only 16% of OHL players ever get a University degree, while 80% of NCAA players graduate.

All good points, though I will throw out there that not all OHL players would have ever gotten a degree even if they hadn't ever played hockey. Rob Schremp in particular never even finished high school, he dropped out at 16 and got a GED since he knew all along he was never going to be university material. The OHL's numbers will always be lower based upon the fact that they don't look at grades when making recruiting decisions.

 

[Puck Swami]

Re: Fascinating story on reality of OHL education packages vs NCAA

All good points, though I will throw out there that not all OHL players would have ever gotten a degree even if they hadn't ever played hockey. Rob Schremp in particular never even finished high school, he dropped out at 16 and got a GED since he knew all along he was never going to be university material. The OHL's numbers will always be lower based upon the fact that they don't look at grades when making recruiting decisions.

Of course they will. There are always a good chunk of OHL kids that wouldn't be able to hack college work, and that's fine. The OHL is also great for those few first rounder types who are such good hockey players that they will be in the NHL by 19 or 20. Between those two groups, that's probably 40% of the OHL players who are unlikely education candidates anyway.

My focus is on the other 60% of OHL players who probably could do university level work and who are NHL bubble prospects (the 2nd to 7th round and undrafted types) who may or may not make the NHL. The odds are that most of these players won't make it to the NHL. So then what? Some of the smart ones will go the CIS route after age 20 and get their degrees by age 24 or 25 and get on with life, but the vast majority of them will chase the dream in the minors, eventually wash out of playing, and have to start all over again the real world, sometimes with families in tow. That's when a degree really helps, and by then, the OHL can't do much for them, as the OHL package expires 18 months after the player leaves the OHL, or signs and NHL, AHL or European contract. Most of the NCAA players will also eventually wash out of the minors, too, but at least 80% of them will have their degree when they wash out, while most of the OHL washouts are looking at much tougher road ahead...

 

[NBer]

Re: Fascinating story on reality of OHL education packages vs NCAA

I've tried to stay out of this as long as I could but I can't wait any longer to combat some of the complete ignorance that is being shown in this forum. In the minds of most of you there are only 2 levels of hockey..NCAA and CHL, with your thoughts being NCAA being the best because of education and hockey..Very few of you have even mentioned a MAJOR factor in the argument which is a level of hockey in Canada known as the CIS..Canadian Interuniversity Sport. yes up north we do have schools, we're not all lumberjacks and fur traders.

CIS is a high level of hockey where kids can get an education at a Canadian university and continue to pursue their dream of becoming professional hockey players. So let's look at the CIS from a couple of ways.

Hockey: Is it as good as the NCAA, probably not quite overall, the NCAA has more depth but the gap is closing. CIS teams regularly make the trek each season to the US to play exhibition games against NCAA Division 1 teams..and guess what..they often win!! Oh so you'll say its just preseason, give them until Christmas and a NCAA team will win anytime, ok well that did happen. In December 2008 the University of New Brunswick hosted the defending NCAA D1 Champion Boston College Eagles in a 2 games series at UNB. They split the games with UNB winning in a shootout. This is at the midpoint for each team’s season so no excuses available. Top level CIS teams can compete with and beat top level NCAA teams so the argument that CIS hockey is like division 3 is garbage.

School: As I have said earlier, yes we do have post-secondary education in the north. No our top schools might not be quite at the same level internationally academically as Harvard or Yale. But at the end of the day a business degree from the University of Western Ontario is just as good as a business degree from Michigan. If the player plays in the CHL then they are able to use their education package at a Canadian university and play CIS hockey. So at the end of the day if the played in the OHL as a 17,18,19,20 and then started in University as a 20 year old with 4 years of academic scholarships from the OHL then they will graduate from a CIS school at 24 with a comparable degree to an NCAA program.

Choice: The best part about the CIS is that it doesn't force kids to make a life choice at 13-15 years old on what they want to do for the rest of their lives. If they want to be a hockey player they can try to play in the CHL as a 16 or 17 year old. maybe get drafted and maybe make the NHL. If not they can't make the NHL they can use their education package and go play for a CIS school and get a university degree..if they don't want to do that they can move in with their parents and live with them until they are 40..either way no doors are closed and no serious life choices have to be made prematurely at 15 years old.

I think the NCAA is a great league and follow it closely..but so is the Canadian Hockey League..But it really bothers me that the CIS, my favourite league is completely left out of the conversation when in reality it plays a giant part in this argument.

 

[4four4]

Re: Fascinating story on reality of OHL education packages vs NCAA

I've tried to stay out of this as long as I could but I can't wait any longer to combat some of the complete ignorance that is being shown in this forum. In the minds of most of you there are only 2 levels of hockey..NCAA and CHL, with your thoughts being NCAA being the best because of education and hockey..Very few of you have even mentioned a MAJOR factor in the argument which is a level of hockey in Canada known as the CIS..Canadian Interuniversity Sport. yes up north we do have schools, we're not all lumberjacks and fur traders.

CIS is a high level of hockey where kids can get an education at a Canadian university and continue to pursue their dream of becoming professional hockey players. So let's look at the CIS from a couple of ways.

Hockey: Is it as good as the NCAA, probably not quite overall, the NCAA has more depth but the gap is closing. CIS teams regularly make the trek each season to the US to play exhibition games against NCAA Division 1 teams..and guess what..they often win!! Oh so you'll say its just preseason, give them until Christmas and a NCAA team will win anytime, ok well that did happen. In December 2008 the University of New Brunswick hosted the defending NCAA D1 Champion Boston College Eagles in a 2 games series at UNB. They split the games with UNB winning in a shootout. This is at the midpoint for each team’s season so no excuses available. Top level CIS teams can compete with and beat top level NCAA teams so the argument that CIS hockey is like division 3 is garbage.

School: As I have said earlier, yes we do have post-secondary education in the north. No our top schools might not be quite at the same level internationally academically as Harvard or Yale. But at the end of the day a business degree from the University of Western Ontario is just as good as a business degree from Michigan. If the player plays in the CHL then they are able to use their education package at a Canadian university and play CIS hockey. So at the end of the day if the played in the OHL as a 17,18,19,20 and then started in University as a 20 year old with 4 years of academic scholarships from the OHL then they will graduate from a CIS school at 24 with a comparable degree to an NCAA program.

Choice: The best part about the CIS is that it doesn't force kids to make a life choice at 13-15 years old on what they want to do for the rest of their lives. If they want to be a hockey player they can try to play in the CHL as a 16 or 17 year old. maybe get drafted and maybe make the NHL. If not they can't make the NHL they can use their education package and go play for a CIS school and get a university degree..if they don't want to do that they can move in with their parents and live with them until they are 40..either way no doors are closed and no serious life choices have to be made prematurely at 15 years old.

I think the NCAA is a great league and follow it closely..but so is the Canadian Hockey League..But it really bothers me that the CIS, my favourite league is completely left out of the conversation when in reality it plays a giant part in this argument.

Many of us are aware of the CIS. The big difference between the NCAA and CHL or for the most part CIS is everybody on a CHL roster is considered a pro. The NCAA frowns upon pro players playing against so called amatures.

 

[Patman]

Re: Fascinating story on reality of OHL education packages vs NCAA

yes up north we do have schools, we're not all lumberjacks and fur traders.

To service and support the timber and fur industries... its a distinction without a difference.

CIS is a high level of hockey where kids can get an education at a Canadian university and continue to pursue their dream of becoming professional hockey players. So let's look at the CIS from a couple of ways.

I'm sure advancing to the ECHL and the Quebec Senior League as the main goal.

Top level CIS teams can compete with and beat top level NCAA teams so the argument that CIS hockey is like division 3 is garbage.

Your professionals beat our amateurs... big deal.

School: As I have said earlier, yes we do have post-secondary education in the north. No our top schools might not be quite at the same level internationally academically as Harvard or Yale. But at the end of the day a business degree from the University of Western Ontario is just as good as a business degree from Michigan.

Maybe in Canada.

If the player plays in the CHL then they are able to use their education package at a Canadian university and play CIS hockey.

Already addressed and resolved as a farce.

So at the end of the day if the played in the OHL as a 17,18,19,20 and then started in University as a 20 year old with 4 years of academic scholarships from the OHL then they will graduate from a CIS school at 24 with a comparable degree to an NCAA program.

That 20% figure is wrong?

Choice: The best part about the CIS is that it doesn't force kids to make a life choice at 13-15 years old on what they want to do for the rest of their lives.

No, but the CHL is more than eager to ram that decision down their throats by re-engineering the junior system.

If they want to be a hockey player they can try to play in the CHL as a 16 or 17 year old. maybe get drafted and maybe make the NHL. If not they can't make the NHL they can use their education package and go play for a CIS school and get a university degree..if they don't want to do that they can move in with their parents and live with them until they are 40..either way no doors are closed and no serious life choices have to be made prematurely at 15 years old.

Really, sounds like they are... why does the CHL think its OK to pressure 15 year olds? Is hockey the only way to avoid trapping around Mile 40?

I think the NCAA is a great league and follow it closely..but so is the Canadian Hockey League..But it really bothers me that the CIS, my favourite league is completely left out of the conversation when in reality it plays a giant part in this argument.

Because it has nothing to do with it.

 

[Hammer]

Re: Fascinating story on reality of OHL education packages vs NCAA

Your professionals beat our amateur 3rd & 4th liners and healthy scratches, and our 3rd string goaltenders... big deal.

Fixed. The best of the NCAA teams will beat the best of the CIS like bass drum. I've seen those CIS teams come into Yost. When Michigan puts their foot on the gas, it's no contest. You're playing guys that washed out of juniors, and Michigan is skating out guys that have a coin flip's chance of seeing an NHL contract within 5 years.

Yeah, you popped my alma mater last season as well, but we played our 3rd string goaltender who saw a whopping 8 minutes of ice time in the regular season, while our top line spent that afternoon in suits. And the shot totals were well skewed to our advantage (56-26, IIRC).

 

[OHLArenaGuide]

Re: Fascinating story on reality of OHL education packages vs NCAA

Of course they will. There are always a good chunk of OHL kids that wouldn't be able to hack college work, and that's fine. The OHL is also great for those few first rounder types who are such good hockey players that they will be in the NHL by 19 or 20. Between those two groups, that's probably 40% of the OHL players who are unlikely education candidates anyway.

My focus is on the other 60% of OHL players who probably could do university level work and who are NHL bubble prospects (the 2nd to 7th round and undrafted types) who may or may not make the NHL. The odds are that most of these players won't make it to the NHL. So then what? Some of the smart ones will go the CIS route after age 20 and get their degrees by age 24 or 25 and get on with life, but the vast majority of them will chase the dream in the minors, eventually wash out of playing, and have to start all over again the real world, sometimes with families in tow. That's when a degree really helps, and by then, the OHL can't do much for them, as the OHL package expires 18 months after the player leaves the OHL, or signs and NHL, AHL or European contract. Most of the NCAA players will also eventually wash out of the minors, too, but at least 80% of them will have their degree when they wash out, while most of the OHL washouts are looking at much tougher road ahead...

I don't disagree with anything you say, but if you assume that a kid coming out of the junior ranks knows he has 18 months to pursue a pro dream before pro experience voids his education package, he'll be 22 years old before it finally is cancelled. 22-year-old men are not kids anymore; if they make the decision to stay in the ECHL, well, they made that decision knowing what it meant.

Regarding the other above poster, CIS players are not professionals; they don't even receive athletic scholarships like NCAA players do. They were professionals if you accept the NCAA's definition, but by the time they start playing CIS hockey they are even more amateur than NCAA players, if you define amateur as not being compensated for their play.

And the quality of hockey in the CIS is comparatively poor as well; I'm guessing our above NBer is from Fredericton since the UNB Reds are all they have, poor dears.

 

[Ralph Baer]

Re: Fascinating story on reality of OHL education packages vs NCAA

Just curious. Is a CIS player currently allowed to transfer to an NCAA college and play varsity sports? (I am assuming that he never played in the CJL, of course.)

 

[Puck Swami]

Re: Fascinating story on reality of OHL education packages vs NCAA

Choice: The best part about the CIS is that it doesn't force kids to make a life choice at 13-15 years old on what they want to do for the rest of their lives. If they want to be a hockey player they can try to play in the CHL as a 16 or 17 year old. maybe get drafted and maybe make the NHL. If not they can't make the NHL they can use their education package and go play for a CIS school and get a university degree..if they don't want to do that they can move in with their parents and live with them until they are 40..either way no doors are closed and no serious life choices have to be made prematurely at 15 years old.

The NCAA considers major junior to be pro hockey, because NHL signed players can play in that league. Seems to me that the 15 or 16 year old hockey player is too young to be a pro, and it's NCAA player who can keep his options open for when he's old enough to make a better decision.

Canadian universities are terrific and the CIS is a fine option to catch some of the major junior washouts to make sure they get degrees by age 24. But a majority of major junior washouts will chase the low minor league dream for years and never get their education package, and never get their degree because the packages expire and the four year degree road is hard to start at age 26 or 27 or 28 when they might have a family by then.

With the reality that less than 20% of chl players ever get a degree, it means that 4 out 5 CHL players likely face a very hard life road ahead of them after hockey. The NHLers and CISers will likely do just fine. With the NCAA player, 80% of them graduate with a degree, and most will have a better opportunity in life as a result.

 

[Hammer]

Re: Fascinating story on reality of OHL education packages vs NCAA

And the quality of hockey in the CIS is comparatively poor as well; I'm guessing our above NBer is from Fredericton since the UNB Reds are all they have, poor dears.

I tend to agree here. I've seen many NCAA D-1 teams that bring in a Canadian school for an opening exhibition game, mainly as cannon fodder to tune up for the season. I've seen a few games at Michigan where they beat a York, or Wilfrid Laurier or a Western Ontario 9-0 or 9-1 where the shot totals are in the neighborhood of 66-15 or worse. Michigan thumped one of them 9-0 and outshot them 74-15. After that one I wondered why I went to see that game. Northern Michigan put 20 goals on Laurentian one year as well. I've seen Ferris pound a few Canadian schools as well, and I can't imagine it being much different on other regions of D-1 hockey.

And the elite of D-III is better than people think.

 

[NBer]

Re: Fascinating story on reality of OHL education packages vs NCAA

Although this is futile because thier is no change your view I can't resist.

To service and support the timber and fur industries... its a distinction without a difference.
-Wow stereotyping..wonder if you're typing your response out on your blackberry??


I'm sure advancing to the ECHL and the Quebec Senior League as the main goal.
-UNB has had 3 players in the last 3 years sign NHL contracts with over 12 former players attending AHL or NHL camps in 2009-2010


Your professionals beat our amateurs... big deal.
-How are CIS players professionals and NCAA players amateurs when they are both doing the exact same thing?? They are playing hockey while attending school full-time and not receiving a direct pay cheque from the school outside of scholarships that they have earned?? they are the exact same. and it's only the NCAA that defines CHL players as Professionals..many Canadians define all Americans as A@@holes..but that isn't reality


Maybe in Canada.
-Not an elitist or anything..saying EVERY american school is better then a Canadian school..right..


Already addressed and resolved as a farce.
-Go ask the players on any AUS (league in the CIS) how their education packages are..i'm sure they'll be happy to say how great they are..want some contact info??


That 20% figure is wrong?
Not sure what 20% figure??

And the quality of hockey in the CIS is comparatively poor as well; I'm guessing our above NBer is from Fredericton since the UNB Reds are all they have, poor dears.
-go out east to the AUS or West to CW and CIS is great..just the Ontario league that is lacking...Been to wildcats game and a good CIS game can be as good as a good CHL game..just need the right teams...An OUA team that got beat by Michigan is no measure because no CW or AUS teams can travel that far for exhibition because of costs. If michigan is so great why didn't they win Frozen Four in 2007-2008 when BC won?? the team that UNB beat



Because it has nothing to do with it.

-How is comparing one systems available options for an education irrelevant? Only because it doesn't agree with your beliefs?

 

[NBer]

Re: Fascinating story on reality of OHL education packages vs NCAA

I tend to agree here. I've seen many NCAA D-1 teams that bring in a Canadian school for an opening exhibition game, mainly as cannon fodder to tune up for the season. I've seen a few games at Michigan where they beat a York, or Wilfrid Laurier or a Western Ontario 9-0 or 9-1 where the shot totals are in the neighborhood of 66-15 or worse. Michigan thumped one of them 9-0 and outshot them 74-15. After that one I wondered why I went to see that game. Northern Michigan put 20 goals on Laurentian one year as well. I've seen Ferris pound a few Canadian schools as well, and I can't imagine it being much different on other regions of D-1 hockey.

And the elite of D-III is better than people think.

Last season UNB Beat the following D1 teams :Umass Amherst, University of Vermont, Providence College and lost to Maine. They also lost 4-2 to the Portland Pirates in an exhibition game although outshooting them and dominating the play..if it hadn't been for a guy on the pirates called Tyler Ennis with 2 goals the results may have been different.

Once again just to clarify..the tops teams from either Canada West or the AUS could give a run to any NCAA division 1 team any day

 

[Dirty]

Re: Fascinating story on reality of OHL education packages vs NCAA

UNB should lobby Bettman to have them replace the Coyotes when that disaster ends. They'd own the Islanders.

 

[Puck Swami]

Re: Fascinating story on reality of OHL education packages vs NCAA

Last season UNB Beat the following D1 teams :Umass Amherst, University of Vermont, Providence College and lost to Maine. They also lost 4-2 to the Portland Pirates in an exhibition game although outshooting them and dominating the play..if it hadn't been for a guy on the pirates called Tyler Ennis with 2 goals the results may have been different.

Once again just to clarify..the tops teams from either Canada West or the AUS could give a run to any NCAA division 1 team any day

Yes -- UNB is a fine program, and could compete very competitively in the NCAA, along with 3 or 4 other CIS programs. But after the top 5 CIS programs, the rest of the CIS would have a pretty hard time competing with most of the NCAA D-I.

 

[NBer]

Re: Fascinating story on reality of OHL education packages vs NCAA

The NCAA considers major junior to be pro hockey, because NHL signed players can play in that league. Seems to me that the 15 or 16 year old hockey player is too young to be a pro, and it's NCAA player who can keep his options open for when he's old enough to make a better decision.

Canadian universities are terrific and the CIS is a fine option to catch some of the major junior washouts to make sure they get degrees by age 24. But a majority of major junior washouts will chase the low minor league dream for years and never get their education package, and never get their degree because the packages expire and the four year degree road is hard to start at age 26 or 27 or 28 when they might have a family by then.

With the reality that less than 20% of chl players ever get a degree, it means that 4 out 5 CHL players likely face a very hard life road ahead of them after hockey. The NHLers and CISers will likely do just fine. With the NCAA player, 80% of them graduate with a degree, and most will have a better opportunity in life as a result.

I have to question the validity of the 20% number..over at the HFboards on a CIS thread their is a list of all CHL overage players (20 year olds)..out of a total of 131 total CHL overage players, 47 of them have already commited to a CIS school..that alone is 36% when a decision on their part doesn't need to be made until December 31st so easily another 10 of these can choose to play in the CIS..I'd be suprised if the total for all high school graduates in either the US or Canada who go on to university after high school is much over 40%

If you want to see for yourself.
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=746257&page=10

 

[NBer]

Re: Fascinating story on reality of OHL education packages vs NCAA

Yes -- UNB is a fine program, and could compete very competitively in the NCAA, along with 3 or 4 other CIS programs. But after the top 5 CIS programs, the rest of the CIS would have a pretty hard time competing with most of the NCAA D-I.

And i acknowledge that in my original post, NCAA has more depth, however the CIS is growing stronger each year as more and more students are able to take advantage of the scholarships provided by the CHL

 

[Dirty]

Re: Fascinating story on reality of OHL education packages vs NCAA

Maybe the NCAA should send the CIS a participation plaque or Atta Boy Award. Just something to make the CIS feel special and recognize their amazing accomplishments. Perhaps a hug.

 

[NBer]

Re: Fascinating story on reality of OHL education packages vs NCAA

Maybe the NCAA should send the CIS a participation plaque or Atta Boy Award

A game between CIS National Champion and NCAA National Champion would do!

 

[OHLArenaGuide]

Re: Fascinating story on reality of OHL education packages vs NCAA

A game between CIS National Champion and NCAA National Champion would do!

Um, no thanks. 20-0 blowouts aren't exactly sporting.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Fascinating story on reality of OHL education packages vs NCAA

Last season UNB Beat the following D1 teams :Umass Amherst, University of Vermont, Providence College and lost to Maine. They also lost 4-2 to the Portland Pirates in an exhibition game although outshooting them and dominating the play..if it hadn't been for a guy on the pirates called Tyler Ennis with 2 goals the results may have been different.

Once again just to clarify..the tops teams from either Canada West or the AUS could give a run to any NCAA division 1 team any day

Ah, Tyler Ennis... (if you can't tell by now, I'm also a Sabres fan)

UPEI didn't do too badly last year either. Granted there are a few teams that are "pushovers" (Ottawa, York), and I think that's whom most posters are referring.

Do the Canada West teams play Alaska, UND, or one of the Colorado teams?