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Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

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Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Kepler said:
Maybe it was Roberts' way of delivering Congress to the Republicans? ;)
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Some left leaning wags have suggested that. Anyone got a table of the 2012 congressional / senate races with how many have a chance of flipping party?
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

joecct said:
It's not the ACA that is the problem, it is the clear definition that Congress can tax anything at anytime for any purpose that really concerns me. The only check and balance to that appears to be the veto or the Congressional elections.

If some pundit or media outlet would start focusing on that, I think more of the country would be concerned.
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LOL

What makes you think they weren't already doing that?

We all pay taxes for stuff we don't want or need. Why people forget what Benjamin Franklin said is beyond me. Death and Taxes, Death and Taxes, Death and Taxes.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

ScoobyDoo said:
LOL

What makes you think they weren't already doing that?

We all pay taxes for stuff we don't want or need. Why people forget what Benjamin Franklin said is beyond me. Death and Taxes, Death and Taxes, Death and Taxes.
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Scooby

Where, before yesterday, did anyone articulate that Congress had the taxing power to compel someone to do something? The chances for abuse, especially if we have a veto proof Congress like we had from 2009-2011 should worry even you.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

joecct said:
Scooby

Where, before yesterday, did anyone articulate that Congress had the taxing power to compel someone to do something? The chances for abuse, especially if we have a veto proof Congress like we had from 2009-2011 should worry even you.
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They compel states to do stuff all the time. They compel people to do stuff all the time.

You haven't looked at the tax code lately. You must do the EZ Form.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

joecct said:
Scooby

Where, before yesterday, did anyone articulate that Congress had the taxing power to compel someone to do something? The chances for abuse, especially if we have a veto proof Congress like we had from 2009-2011 should worry even you.
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How about every single time I brought up the raising of the alcohol age?
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Priceless said:
When Democrats cut taxes, the GOP says they raised taxes and are Socialists.
When Democrats raise taxes, the GOP says they raised taxes and are Socialists.

So if it doesn't matter to the GOP, it shouldn't matter to anyone else. :D
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The Democrats cut taxes? Sorry, couldn't get past that one.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Kepler said:
As opposed to the calm, reasonable, intelligent way the right is responding to it being upheld. :D
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You've long known my thoughts on Limbaugh and his ilk.

But, glad to see you acknowledge Obama worship.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Once the wailing and gnashing of teeth on the right, and the gloating on the left, starts to fade, the extraordinary significance of yesterday's SCOTUS ruling will begin to sink in....and a remarkably transformative event it will become seen to be!

Wednesday evening, when we when to bed, there was a health insurance mandate: you had to buy health insurance, or else you pay a penalty.

This morning when we woke up, the mandate was gone. The mandate is unconstitutional, and the language was so firm and decisive that no mandate like it is ever coming back.

Now, we have a health insurance option: if you want, you can buy health insurance, or else, if you want, you can pay a tax. up to you.


This is huge.


For one thing, the insurance companies are really f^cked, seriously badly f^cked (how long until they notice?) As Roberts himself pointed out, it will be cheaper to pay the tax than to buy the insurance. This undercuts the entire function that the "mandate" was supposed to serve. The only way they could afford to take people with pre-existing conditions would be if collectively they covered nearly everyone, and now we know that's not going to happen.

Hospitals also are somewhat f^cked, but not nearly as badly as insurance companies. People will figure, I'll pay the tax and wait to buy insurance until after I'm sick, they can't turn me down. Um, bad choice, Charley Brown, now you are in the emergency room and no insurance is going to provide retroactive coverage. "Coverage will start just as soon as you are discharged." So the drain on emergency room resources will continue, though probably not as badly as before.

The deficit is going to come under more pressure. Now that it's a "tax" it's out in the open, if the "tax" isn't high enough to serve its purpose (see above), imagine the political complications in trying to increase it.



I wish none of this were true, unfortunately my wishes are generally not heeded by our elected leaders of either political party. :( oh well.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Bob Gray said:
The Democrats cut taxes?
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Yes, JFK's signature domestic achievement, the 1961 tax cut. an economic boom followed.

Of course,in today's political environment, JFK would not be welcome in the Democratic party any more than Joe Lieberman is.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

FreshFish said:
Yes, JFK's signature domestic achievement, the 1961 tax cut. an economic boom followed.

Of course,in today's political environment, JFK would not be welcome in the Democratic party any more than Joe Lieberman is.
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JFK would give Ron Paul a run for his money, for crying out loud. JFK would be a libertarian today.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

FreshFish said:
Yes, JFK's signature domestic achievement, the 1961 tax cut. an economic boom followed.
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And guess who called him a Communist and an Anti-Christian who betrayed the Constitution?

300-wanted-for-treason-best.jpg


The Republicans. SSDD for fifty years and counting. As long as the suckers keep buying.
 
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Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Kepler said:
And guess who called him a Communist and an Anti-Christian who betrayed the Constitution?

300-wanted-for-treason-best.jpg


The Republicans. SSDD for fifty years and counting. As long as the suckers keep buying.
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At that point in history, that would have been you guys. The bible thumpers were still democrats.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

FreshFish said:
Yes, JFK's signature domestic achievement, the 1961 tax cut. an economic boom followed.

Of course,in today's political environment, JFK would not be welcome in the Democratic party any more than Joe Lieberman is.
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You make my point for me.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

joecct said:
It's not the ACA that is the problem, it is the clear definition that Congress can tax anything at anytime for any purpose that really concerns me. The only check and balance to that appears to be the veto or the Congressional elections.
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Regardless of whether this is a good idea, it would be the worst kind of judicial activism for the Court to invent a limit from whole cloth where there is no basis for it in the Constitution.

If you want a parallel, consider patents and trademarks. There, the Constitution does explicitly incorporate bounding language ("for limited Times"), yet the language is vague enough that the Court has acknowledged that any arbitrary time period (as long as it is mathematically bounded) is valid. Personally, I think that is bad policy and unfortunate, but I can't argue with the Court's reasoning.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Craig P. said:
Regardless of whether this is a good idea, it would be the worst kind of judicial activism for the Court to invent a limit from whole cloth where there is no basis for it in the Constitution.

If you want a parallel, consider patents and trademarks. There, the Constitution does explicitly incorporate bounding language ("for limited Times"), yet the language is vague enough that the Court has acknowledged that any arbitrary time period (as long as it is mathematically bounded) is valid. Personally, I think that is bad policy and unfortunate, but I can't argue with the Court's reasoning.
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I don't understand your first point. CJR cited Article 1 Sec 8 of the Constitution which gives the Congress the power to tax. I think it was a stretch to do so, but I am an accountant by trade, not a Constitutional lawyer/scholar.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

joecct said:
I don't understand your first point. CJR cited Article 1 Sec 8 of the Constitution which gives the Congress the power to tax. I think it was a stretch to do so, but I am an accountant by trade, not a Constitutional lawyer/scholar.
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My point was, you seemed to be saying, "I think it's a bad idea for Congress to have an essentially unconstrained power to tax." I agree that this is cause for concern. Given the context, I thought you might have been implicitly criticizing the Court for failing to define a limit—if you were not, it's still something worth discussing because it seems to be a point of complaint about the decision from a number of people on the right. Hence my statement that "even if this is cause for concern, it wouldn't have been appropriate for the Court to do anything about it."
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

FlagDUDE08 said:
Who does the trial? Is it similar to an impeachment trial, where the Honorable Roberts presides and the Senators vote as jury? If so, there's no way he's being indicted.

EDIT: Article 2, Section 4:



Also, Article 1, Section 3, Clause 6:



There's no way he's going to be removed from office, unless the CBC walks out.
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The case will be referred to one of Holder's appointees. Seriously.
 
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