Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

[5mn_Major]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Interesting article on the Election of 1912 and what are its consequences.
http://townhall.com/columnists/richtucker/2012/06/24/echoes_from_the_war_of_1912

Have to disagree with the article. Setting aside the general outcome of 'liberal is bad'...the main route to get there in the form of a general indictment of TR is waay off base in my opinion.

Pretty amazing list of accomplishments of TR do include workers rights and reigning in corporations. Carrying that further, it mentions TR suggesting that govt should be futher beholden to voters. The author is making the mistake that in his belief that these things are taken too far is the same thing was in 1912. Where he is wrong is that in 1912 the country was backwards, corporations were near monopolies and workers were abused via collusion...and politicians did not listen to the people. TR helped move the country into the modern era...if we've gone too far, that's not his fault.

Its the reason that TR is usually considered about the 5th best president on wiki's ranking of US presidents.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Sweet. Now it's Teddy Roosevelt who destroyed America. Boy, it's a good thing we elected Reagan. Just imagine how bad it would be right now if we hadn't.

 

[joecct]

Sweet. Now it's Teddy Roosevelt who destroyed America. Boy, it's a good thing we elected Reagan. Just imagine how bad it would be right now if we hadn't.

Eight years of Jimmay!?

 

[pirate]

Frankly the whole 'bullying is the new sensitivity' issue is normal, consistent and IMO a positive.

Its a big issue...is it over the top? Maybe some.

But just as with civil rights, womens lib, child abuse, diversity in college entrance, etc...it pushes society hard which is required to move it. And after the topic fades from being hot, society will find a new more accomidating norm on the issue.

Its good and its how progress works. An example. Title IX gets a bad rap here sometimes because some blame it for limits to D1 hockey (which I disagree with). But here's a pretty good article on what the concept of Title IX has meant for society:

40 years later, the larger meaning of Title IX
Fox

In the United States Title IX was signed on June 23, 1972 by President Richard Nixon with the intention of prohibiting gender based discrimination by institutions that receive federal money. “No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving federal financial assistance.”

Although Title IX is attributed to sports it also mandates equal opportunity in education. It is in education as well as in sports that the results staggering.

In 1972 women received 9% of medical degrees. Today they receive 48% of all medical degrees.

In 1972 7% of women earned law degrees, 19 % received doctoral degrees and women comprised just 30 % of college students. Today women earn 47 percent of law degrees, 50 percent of doctoral degrees and comprise of 57 percent of all college students.

Today, the idea that everyone should have the opportunity to play sports also finds little controversy. Sports build character, teamwork, teaches one to overcome adversity. It is these life lessons that participants carry with them from the playing field.

What is also evident in studies is that participation in team sports can result in improvements to education, work and health prospects. There are other associated benefits for those that participate in sports such as lower teenage pregnancy rates, better grades, lower risk of obesity and higher self-esteem. No one disagrees that these growth opportunities mean girls are more likely to be active than before.

As a father of female student/athletes I'm thankful the opportunities are there. As the father of male student/athletes, my experience is that having 76% of teachers being women and seeing wrestling and other men's sports eliminated it is no surprise women make up >50% of college students etc.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Eight years of Jimmay!?

Jimmy Carter's second term is happening right now.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Jimmy Carter's second term is happening right now.

Sure. And Romney's going to sweep into the White House and save us all.

Thank, God. If we're lucky he may even protect us from the gays and give us back our guns.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Sure. And Romney's going to sweep into the White House and save us all.

Thank, God. If we're lucky he may even protect us from the gays and give us back our guns.

But instead you'd rather have a corrupt administration that appoints a tax cheat as Secretary of the Treasury and an Attorney General that may soon be held in contempt of Congress? (the committee voted to go forward with contempt, and it now must pass the full house)

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

But instead you'd rather have a corrupt administration that appoints a tax cheat as Secretary of the Treasury and an Attorney General that may soon be held in contempt of Congress? (the committee voted to go forward with contempt, and it now must pass the full house)

I guess we'd rather out Federal Agents. It worked so well for Cheney we should just adopt is as Federal policy and be done with it.

Elect Romney!!!!!!!!!!! He'll save us all.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Have to disagree with the article. Setting aside the general outcome of 'liberal is bad'...the main route to get there in the form of a general indictment of TR is waay off base in my opinion.

Pretty amazing list of accomplishments of TR do include workers rights and reigning in corporations. Carrying that further, it mentions TR suggesting that govt should be futher beholden to voters. The author is making the mistake that in his belief that these things are taken too far is the same thing was in 1912. Where he is wrong is that in 1912 the country was backwards, corporations were near monopolies and workers were abused via collusion...and politicians did not listen to the people. TR helped move the country into the modern era...if we've gone too far, that's not his fault.

Well-thought out and well-expressed post.

I would argue that Reagan was a good president by the same logic. He (or his people anyway) recognized that by the 1970s the sclerotic effect of big government-big corporate alliances had progressed too far and introduced ideas for cutting it back in some areas (although, unfortunately, not in the worst offenders of the military and energy industries). It's an anachronism to give him all the fault that those ideas have been taken too far and exploited for personal gain by those who came after him (although I would argue that the abuse of Reagan's ideas was inevitable given who benefits when regulation is weakened and inequality is exacerbated rather than relieved by government policy).

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

I guess we'd rather out Federal Agents. It worked so well for Cheney we should just adopt is as Federal policy and be done with it.

Elect Romney!!!!!!!!!!! He'll save us all.

Romney is no different from Obummer. He's a RINO that is looking to put forward the same authoritarian crud that the other dude wants.

Third party time. If enough people stand up to this corruption, we may once again see actual liberties.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Romney is no different from Obummer. He's a RINO that is looking to put forward the same authoritarian crud that the other dude wants.

Third party time. If enough people stand up to this corruption, we may once again see actual liberties.

It's the "enough people" that gave us Obama and Dubya before him.

Democracy and authoritarianism are not mutually exclusive, particularly when voters are worried, which is why leaders always try to keep voters worried.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Well-thought out and well-expressed post.

I would argue that Reagan was a good president by the same logic. He (or his people anyway) recognized that by the 1970s the sclerotic effect of big government-big corporate alliances had progressed too far and introduced ideas for cutting it back in some areas (although, unfortunately, not in the worst offenders of the military and energy industries). It's an anachronism to give him all the fault that those ideas have been taken too far and exploited for personal gain by those who came after him (although I would argue that the abuse of Reagan's ideas was inevitable given who benefits when regulation is weakened and inequality is exacerbated rather than relieved by government policy).

Of course that's assuming that the relief of inequality is an assumed outcome of government policy, a big leap of faith in many cases, though undoubtedly true in others.

 

[joecct]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

It's the "enough people" that gave us Obama and Dubya before him.

Democracy and authoritarianism are not mutually exclusive, particularly when voters are worried, which is why leaders always try to keep voters worried.

Are you worried?

I am concerned that we, the people, have elected leaders that have grown the Federal government too large, tried, at the Federal level, to solve every problem there is, and seemed to tolerate lifetime representatives. Until there is a fundamental shift in the electorate, these problems will continue.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Of course that's assuming that the relief of inequality is an assumed outcome of government policy, a big leap of faith in many cases, though undoubtedly true in others.

Even in the cases where 'the relief of inequality' was not a direct outcome of government...the government in 1912 was easily the largest cultural player and therefore indirectly influenced societal thought in so many ways. So either way, its difficult to understate the impact of someone like TR and that shift in policy.

Well-thought out and well-expressed post.

I would argue that Reagan was a good president by the same logic. He (or his people anyway) recognized that by the 1970s the sclerotic effect of big government-big corporate alliances had progressed too far and introduced ideas for cutting it back in some areas (although, unfortunately, not in the worst offenders of the military and energy industries). It's an anachronism to give him all the fault that those ideas have been taken too far and exploited for personal gain by those who came after him (although I would argue that the abuse of Reagan's ideas was inevitable given who benefits when regulation is weakened and inequality is exacerbated rather than relieved by government policy).

Good call. Thinking in terms of 1980...Reagan (as with Thatcher when she came to office) was probably what the country needed. If as some would advocate the country has gone too far past Reagan in conservative thought...that's not on Reagan.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Of course that's assuming that the relief of inequality is an assumed outcome of government policy, a big leap of faith in many cases, though undoubtedly true in others.

I agree with this. In these things there is always a healthy dose of unintended consequences.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Thinking in terms of 1980...Reagan (as with Thatcher when she came to office) was probably what the country needed. If as some would advocate the country has gone too far past Reagan in conservative thought...that's not on Reagan.

The pendulum swings are how we adjust to changing circumstances. No tool works for every problem.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

The pendulum swings are how we adjust to changing circumstances. No tool works for every problem.

And what tool do John Boehner and Mitch McConnell represent?

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

I agree with this. In these things there is always a healthy dose of unintended consequences.

That's true in spades. Often the unintended consequences dwarf the original vision of a given goal/program/legislation.

And then there's a whole 'nother level of this in that different people view a term like "relief of inequality" very differently. Some see it as saying the government should leave everyone alone for the most part. Other see it as the government actively intervening in more areas to help out the less fortunate. There's veins of truth and untruth in both views.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

And then there's a whole 'nother level of this in that different people view a term like "relief of inequality" very differently. Some see it as saying the government should leave everyone alone for the most part. Other see it as the government actively intervening in more areas to help out the less fortunate. There's veins of truth and untruth in both views.

That's usually true and I agree in principle, though in the particular case of "relief of inequality" I'm not sure it's entirely the case. While many people want the government to leave everybody alone for the most part, I don't know that they would go further and call that "relief of inequality," in the sense of economic inequality. I can certainly see them saying that it is the path to a sincere "equality under the law," to counter which I would hand the mic to Anatole France:

The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

And what tool do John Boehner and Mitch McConnell represent?

Lots of them; you might even say they're real toolboxes.

And that goes for the Dem leadership, too.