Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

[walrus]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

NASA, IRS, Parks Service, FBI

They waste more money than you can shake a stick at.
And wow, the IRS is the model of efficiency, lets add another few million employees as I'm sure the others are right out straight

 

[Wol4ine]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

Yes, there's class warfare going on. And the .1% are winning to the exclusion of about 98% of Americans. (the remaining 1.9% are breaking even)

From Ronaldo Magness;

“Since when do we in America believe that our society is made up of two diametrically opposed classes -- one rich, one poor -- both in a permanent state of conflict and neither able to get ahead except at the expense of the other? Since when do we in America accept this alien and discredited theory of social and class warfare? Since when do we in America endorse the politics of envy and division?”

For me, the great thing about our economic system is that it is open and fluid. We don't have the aristocracy of the old country. Class is not a fixed designation in this country. We are an upwardly mobile society with a lot of movement between income groups.

The Treasury Department’s latest study on income mobility in America found that during the 10-year period starting in 1996, roughly half of the taxpayers who started in the bottom 20% had moved up to a higher income group by 2005.
Another recent survey of over 500 successful entrepreneurs found that 93% came from middle-class or lower-class backgrounds. Most were the first in their families to launch a business.

Their stories are the American story: Millions of immigrants fled from the closed societies of the Old World to the security of equal rights in this land of upward mobility.

You, on the other hand believe that only 310,000 are winning a class war vs the other 309.7 million Americans. I agree with Reagan.

 

[MUnRPI]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

They waste more money than you can shake a stick at.
And wow, the IRS is the model of efficiency, lets add another few million employees as I'm sure the others are right out straight

My favorite is the "United States Mission to the Organization of American States" whatever that is.

I'm all for social programs and helping out the less fortunate, but we gotta trim the fat

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

The Treasury Department’s latest study on income mobility in America found that during the 10-year period starting in 1996, roughly half of the taxpayers who started in the bottom 20% had moved up to a higher income group by 2005.

Only to be soundly flogged by a system that craps on the middle class.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

My favorite is the "United States Mission to the Organization of American States" whatever that is.

I'm all for social programs and helping out the less fortunate, but we gotta trim the fat

Do you really not know what the OAS is?

Do they teach History anymore?

When someone makes a move
Of which we don't approve,
Who is it that always intervenes?
The UN and OAS.,
They have their place, I guess,
But first
Send the Marines!

We'll send them all we've got,
John Wayne and Randolph Scott,
Remember those exciting fighting scenes?
To the shores of Tripoli,
But not to Mississippoli,
What do we do?
We send the Marines!

For might makes right,
And till they've seen the light,
They've got to be protected,
All their rights respected,
'till somebody we like can be elected.

Members of the corps
All hate the thought of war,
They'd rather kill them off by peaceful means.
Stop calling it aggression,
O we hate that expression.
We only want the world to know
That we support the status quo.
They love us everywhere we go,
So when in doubt,
Send the Marines!

 

[MUnRPI]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

Do you really not know what the OAS is?

Do they teach History anymore?

poorly phrased. I was thinking to myself of redundancy and that name takes the cake.

They really don't serve a purpose though.. just another organization hq in DC that we don't need

 

[Bakunin]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

Only to be soundly flogged by a system that craps on the middle class.

Some perspective is needed here - we ***** and moan about taking it in the shorts from the system in this country, yet we're better off than something like 99% of the world's population. To them, we are the 1%.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

They really don't serve a purpose though.. just another organization hq in DC that we don't need

Disagree completely. Organizations like that are how we run the world, and running the world is why we live in McMansions while our brethren in most of the Americas live in slums. It's either that or have gunboats off every country in South America and Central America. On a dollar per dollar basis, diplomatic organizations are amazingly cost effective.

Also, for a good old capitalism defender, organizations like OAS are how our corporations exploit other countries' raw materials and workers by bribing their elites to screw their countrymen. There are a lot of criticisms to be made against how we dominate the hemisphere, but "expense" aint one of them. Unless you are making the observation that our foreign policy is another way of redistributing wealth from the middle class to the rich in all nations. If that's your point, then we agree.

 

[joecct]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

Disagree completely. Organizations like that are how we run the world. It's either that or have gunboats off every country in South America and Central America. On a dollar per dollar basis, diplomatic organizations are amazingly cost effective.

Like the (current) UN?

And what's wrong with gunboat diplomacy?

 

[Priceless]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

Disagree completely. Organizations like that are how we run the world. It's either that or have gunboats off every country in South America and Central America. On a dollar per dollar basis, diplomatic organizations are amazingly cost effective.

Yeah, but real 'Muricans hate committees and organizations (especially with dang ferriners)! Gunboats are cool, especially when they blow stuff up!

 

[Kepler]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

And what's wrong with gunboat diplomacy?

Too costly. You can screw people over via the "free market" much more cheaply.

Also, too destabilizing. People will let you rip off them via banking for a hundred years as long as you keep them in the stupor of TV and a few crappy consumer goods, but the report of guns tends to wake them up, and nobody wants that.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

Yeah, but real 'Muricans hate committees and organizations (especially with dang ferriners)! Gunboats are cool, especially when they blow stuff up!

By George, he's got it. There's a place for NGO's but nothing beats "the smell of napalm in the morning."

 

[Wol4ine]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

Only to be soundly flogged by a system that craps on the middle class.

Too costly. You can screw people over via the "free market" much more cheaply.

I don't know what it was that caused the two of you to embrace marxism and disdain capitalism the way you do. I feel sorry for the both of you.

 

[unofan]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

From Ronaldo Magness;

For me, the great thing about our economic system is that it is open and fluid. We don't have the aristocracy of the old country. Class is not a fixed designation in this country. We are an upwardly mobile society with a lot of movement between income groups.

That by all objective economic measurements is getting less and less mobile.

The Treasury Department’s latest study on income mobility in America found that during the 10-year period starting in 1996, roughly half of the taxpayers who started in the bottom 20% had moved up to a higher income group by 2005.

And to the extent there are fluctuations, they are usually only by one quintile. Also, moving up from the bottom 20% to the 21-40% quintile pretty much means you got a job, got married, or otherwise found some source of income. If you honestly want me to believe that they suddenly moved to the top quintile, you'll need to find numbers that simply aren't there.

Another recent survey of over 500 successful entrepreneurs found that 93% came from middle-class or lower-class backgrounds. Most were the first in their families to launch a business.

Two problems. First, define successful. Are we talking the guy who started a local restaurant and now makes the equivalent of an upper middle class salary? Or are we talking about Bill Gates level of success?
Secondly, you're surveying successful people. Survey 500 unsuccessful entrepreneurs and I bet 93% of those came from middle or lower class backgrounds as well. Maybe because about 95% of Americans consider themselves lower, middle, or the proverbial "upper middle" class.

Their stories are the American story: Millions of immigrants fled from the closed societies of the Old World to the security of equal rights in this land of upward mobility.

You, on the other hand believe that only 310,000 are winning a class war vs the other 309.7 million Americans. I agree with Reagan.

I agree with Warren Buffet.

 

[geezer]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

Nice of you to cut out the words immediately before that which provide the context. Obama wasn't saying you didn't build your own business, he was saying you didn't build the schools, roads, or other infrastructure which support your business.

This just isn't true - you're repeating a spin someone came up with after the fact, which isn't defensible in light of what he actually said. There are no words in the speech that created the spin you're now repeating, it's made up.
Now, I'm an Obama supporter. But this was just a stupid, stupid thing to say. I'm not sure if he meant it or was just playing to a really stupid, rich audience of academics that he was trying to milk.

... now before some of you start, I'm intimately knowledgeable about the world of academia. College professors are the wealthiest demographic outside doctors in a lot of small towns, and as a group they are incredibly stupid people about anything that isn't printed in a book on the field of their specific expertise. They are career students because they have no sense. So let's not argue the point. I know these people.

 

[joecct]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

The roads, schools, and the rest of the infrastructure is there for all of us to use. So when we factor out the common denominator, what's left is what? Work ethic? Luck?

 

[Bakunin]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

College degrees are helpful with regard to the income mobility issue, and since many higher education institutions are sitting on a mountain of cash in their endowments, that would be a good place to start with expanding access for lower/middle income students.

Beyond that, it'd be nice if the super wealthy didn't keep throwing money at the Harvards of the world - those schools clearly don't need any more. Honestly, what the **** is a school supposed to do with a $30B endowment? Even if it paid the full cost of attendance for all its undergrads, that would still only come out to something like $400M annually which is significantly less than the ROI of that fund, I am guessing.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

This just isn't true - you're repeating a spin someone came up with after the fact, which isn't defensible in light of what he actually said. There are no words in the speech that created the spin you're now repeating, it's made up.

Here are examples of what he meant:

Punctuation - Whoever wrote the transcript wrote the puncuation a specific way. It could easily have been written this way:

"Somebody invested in roads and bridges, if you’ve got a business, you didn’t build that."

Are you 100% sure that he meant businesses? It doesn't appear so if you continue...

Comment clarification - Obama followed up that point with a clarification phrase:

"Somebody invested in roads and bridges, if you’ve got a business, you didn’t build that. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet."

So the clarification is of infrastructure (roads) not being built by businesses...by showing other examples of infrastructure (internet) that didn't get built by businesses. Why would he clarify business owners not building their own business by completely changing the topic to infrastructure not getting built on its own?

Intent of the whole passage - The whole intent of the passage was "The point is, when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together."

Why would the major summation of his point be 'we succeed because of our individual initiative' if he meant 'we do not succeed because of our individual intiative' (as you didn't build your own business would imply)?

 

[unofan]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

This just isn't true - you're repeating a spin someone came up with after the fact, which isn't defensible in light of what he actually said. There are no words in the speech that created the spin you're now repeating, it's made up.

"Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business, you didn’t build that."

The 'that' clearly intended to refer to the roads and bridges (and the great teacher and American system referenced before those). It was a poorly written speech which probably should've used "those" instead of "that," but the intended meaning is plain as day.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."

Did the president mean that his administration tries constantly to harm the American people?