Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

[amherstblackbear]

Okay, but you should check yourself for predetermined ideas, too. You seem pretty emotionally tied to the hypothesis that smaller class size MUST yield better results, so you are categorically rejecting this data that suggests otherwise, saying that there must have been other, more important factors, so a better model is needed.

Being skeptical is a good thing - but when you immediately start ranting about predetermined agendas and fitting analysis to advocacy, that is an entirely different animal than saying, "whoa - that's interesting. I would really be curious to see a more complete study to see if there might be other factors which are suppressing the improved outcomes which I would otherwise have expected given that huge reduction in class size, or if my hypothesis that class size reduction improves test scores is actually incorrect."

I can see how it looks that way. I'm playing devils advocate. If folks were quoting kindergarten analysis to justify current practice, I'd be reacting the same way.

my emotional tie-up is as I wrote earlier. I react poorly to partisans who hide behind social science, suck at it, and then give everyone else a bad name.

 

[geezer]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

Again, apologies to those who don't read anything without state-approved mass consumption filters, but I've got to link this fascinating story from Hot Air. There is an especially interesting essay from a Detroit 7th-grader who points out, "you can make the school gooder by geting people that will do the jod that is pay for get a football tame for the kinds mybe a baksball tamoe get a other jamtacher for the school get a lot of tacher." Who could argue with that? The one thing he's been taught in 7 years by the wealthy union goons (who are blissfully enjoying their lake homes for 3 long months of vacation while this is going on) is that we need "get a lot of tacher." The more the merrier! As long as we don't run out of taxpayers... wait...

 

[Rover]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

Have you forgotten about the Salt Lake City Winter Olympics? Perhaps you didn't realize what a disastrous situation it was before he was asked to be in charge?

He really did perform a minor miracle there. We lived in the area at the time, and the perilous situation of lack of readiness to host the Games was really big local news. Lots of people were legitimately prepared for a huge public relations fiasco before he arrived. The transformation was quickly apparent, all you had to do was look out your car window every time you drove past Park City!

Even if you disdain his success at Harvard Business School and his founding of Bain Capital, you should at least have the decency to acknowledge that yes, in rescuing us from international ridicule, he did us all a nice solid.

Romney is running a campaign that would have worked great 30 years ago. He seems to be betting now that either 1) the electorate will look exactly like the 2010 mid-terms, or 2) Democrats collectively will think Election Day got moved to Wednesday.

Romney did good work in 1) The Olympics, 2) Balancing the state budget reasonably well (no massive tax hikes nor drastic cuts), 3) Romneycare, and 4) Cleaning out some of the Big Dig mess.

Problem is he won't run on that record. Its all "tax cuts for the rich" or "reinstate Don't Ask Don't Tell". I find Romney to be taking positions that I doubt he even believes himself. That is a big concern, as it tells me he'll be easily influenced by bat chit crazy and corrupt GOP Congressional leaders like McConnell, The Boner and Ryan. The Mittster's net unfavorable ratings are his fault and a reflection of how he's conducted his campaign over the last 5 years he's been running for President. There was a much better story to tell than the one he seems to be determined to stick with.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

Again, apologies to those who don't read anything without state-approved mass consumption filters, but I've got to link this fascinating story from Hot Air. There is an especially interesting essay from a Detroit 7th-grader who points out, "you can make the school gooder by geting people that will do the jod that is pay for get a football tame for the kinds mybe a baksball tamoe get a other jamtacher for the school get a lot of tacher." Who could argue with that? The one thing he's been taught in 7 years by the wealthy union goons (who are blissfully enjoying their lake homes for 3 long months of vacation while this is going on) is that we need "get a lot of tacher." The more the merrier! As long as we don't run out of taxpayers... wait...

That doesn't surprise me one bit.

 

[pirate]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

Gang

Catholic schools in the 60's routinely had 40+ kids in each class and they seemed to manage OK. From my point of view, there were 4 kids in my class that constantly pushed each other to get the best grades.

I routinely hear 26-31 for current class size, same as it was back when we were writing with coal on pieces of slate and hoping a sabre-tooth didn't eat us on the way home.

And recall, 33% of the added people weren't teachers.


On a positive note, the US had a net addition almost 13,000 public schools between 1980 and 2009*. That is 15% growth in schools in 20 years.


To avoid accusations of cherry picking, I won't dig into the stats for student growth during that subset of the original period but we added schools at a greater rate than we added students and added teachers and adminstrators at a far higher rate still.


* SOURCE: U.S. Department of Education, National Center for Education Statistics. (2011). Digest of Education Statistics, 2010 (NCES 2011-015), Chapter 2.

 

[Craig P.]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

Romney did good work in 1) The Olympics, 2) Balancing the state budget reasonably well (no massive tax hikes nor drastic cuts), 3) Romneycare, and 4) Cleaning out some of the Big Dig mess.

Problem is he won't run on that record. Its all "tax cuts for the rich" or "reinstate Don't Ask Don't Tell". I find Romney to be taking positions that I doubt he even believes himself. That is a big concern, as it tells me he'll be easily influenced by bat chit crazy and corrupt GOP Congressional leaders like McConnell, The Boner and Ryan. The Mittster's net unfavorable ratings are his fault and a reflection of how he's conducted his campaign over the last 5 years he's been running for President. There was a much better story to tell than the one he seems to be determined to stick with.

The problem Romney has with running on his record is that he has a good record to run as a pragmatic centrist, but the GOP base doesn't want a pragmatic centrist and he won't get enough center-right and crossover center-left votes to win the election if the GOP base stays away in droves. (It's the Romneycare issue writ large: it causes him problems talking seriously about Obamacare because he can't disavow the program completely, and his only honest critique is that it's a fine design for some states and not others---which is a level of nuance that unfortunately* does not play with the voters.)


(* When I say "unfortunately", I mean in a meta sense. In the specific instance, I like it because I prefer Obama to Romney, but in general I decry the absence of nuance from our political discourse.)

 

[amherstblackbear]

abb - the point I'm failing to make is that when the number is 100% how much could somebody fluff them up? Sure, he could have picked some point before or after and perhaps the 8.5% to 100% ratio would look a little better...but would that change the point?

Pirate, I'm being too abstract for my own good. I agree on substance. I'd be gobsmacked if some independent analysis concluded that resources were being allocated/used efficiently.

The best way to explain my reaction is anger over the politicization of the issue - not the substance. I saw that editorial as feeding into a pointless partisan "debate" that just serves as a recipe for paralysis.

Right: rabble, rabble, rabble, teachers, rabble
Left: must protect NEA from conservative attacks

The real problem is secondary to the partisan implications...

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

Here's someone who can stop voter fraud:

"Bobby, they're called minorities"

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

"Bobby, they're called minorities"

Huh? No idea what that's supposed to mean.

 

[pirate]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

Pirate, I'm being too abstract for my own good. I agree on substance. I'd be gobsmacked if some independent analysis concluded that resources were being allocated/used efficiently.

The best way to explain my reaction is anger over the politicization of the issue - not the substance. I saw that editorial as feeding into a pointless partisan "debate" that just serves as a recipe for paralysis.

Right: rabble, rabble, rabble, teachers, rabble
Left: must protect NEA from conservative attacks

The real problem is secondary to the partisan implications...

Sorry if my responses became too directed at you.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

Can't you say that of the current occupant of 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. NW prior to 1/20/2009?

I won't argue with that.

So you don't consider community organizing to be work? Fascinating concept.

 

[joecct]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

So you don't consider community organizing to be work? Fascinating concept.

did he have to meet a payroll? did he ever have to fire somebody? Did he have to cut X so there was enough money to do Y? Did he ever negotiate with an <strike>anarchist</strike> vendor?

It seems that our President has always lived on the public dole. Not that that's bad - heck I was a Federale for 32 years, but did he ever DO anything?

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

did he have to meet a payroll? did he ever have to fire somebody? Did he have to cut X so there was enough money to do Y? Did he ever negotiate with an <strike>anarchist</strike> vendor?

It seems that our President has always lived on the public dole. Not that that's bad - heck I was a Federale for 32 years, but did he ever DO anything?

No competitors. No complying with government regulations. Bill Clinton never had a real job, either.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

did he have to meet a payroll? did he ever have to fire somebody? Did he have to cut X so there was enough money to do Y? Did he ever negotiate with an <strike>anarchist</strike> vendor?

It seems that our President has always lived on the public dole. Not that that's bad - heck I was a Federale for 32 years, but did he ever DO anything?

The post you quoted and responded to

Being president would be hard work, and there is no indication Romney has ever worked a day in his life.

I've never met a payroll, fired anybody or balanced a budget...is that how you define work? I guess despite holding jobs at LL Bean, Microsoft, Dell, Genuity, Delorme and other companies I've never "worked" either.

I've also been a community organizer, which incidentally, is not a federal job. If he was just a lackey (like me) he would have gone door to door, held meetings in the community and the like. If he ran the office where he worked, then yes, he did all those things you mention. The head of each office is usually in charge of their own budget and has hiring and firing authority. They usually handle time cards but the actual payroll duties are outsourced (as they are at every company where I've held a job) to an accounting firm.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

The post you quoted and responded to


I've never met a payroll, fired anybody or balanced a budget...is that how you define work? I guess despite holding jobs at LL Bean, Microsoft, Dell, Genuity, Delorme and other companies I've never "worked" either.

I've also been a community organizer, which incidentally, is not a federal job. If he was just a lackey (like me) he would have gone door to door, held meetings in the community and the like. If he ran the office where he worked, then yes, he did all those things you mention. The head of each office is usually in charge of their own budget and has hiring and firing authority. They usually handle time cards but the actual payroll duties are outsourced (as they are at every company where I've held a job) to an accounting firm.

I guess it depends on your definition of work. I suppose it can be construed as "work" when somebody at an ACORN office gives tax advice to an aspiring kiddie pimp. But most of us wouldn't consider it so.

 

[joecct]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

The post you quoted and responded to


I've never met a payroll, fired anybody or balanced a budget...is that how you define work? I guess despite holding jobs at LL Bean, Microsoft, Dell, Genuity, Delorme and other companies I've never "worked" either.

I've also been a community organizer, which incidentally, is not a federal job. If he was just a lackey (like me) he would have gone door to door, held meetings in the community and the like. If he ran the office where he worked, then yes, he did all those things you mention. The head of each office is usually in charge of their own budget and has hiring and firing authority. They usually handle time cards but the actual payroll duties are outsourced (as they are at every company where I've held a job) to an accounting firm.

Sensitive aren't we?

At least Mitt (and Slick Willie) were governors. They were in charge of large budgets. Heck, our current President was a US Senator, and that is not exactly a great thing these days to put on the resume.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

Sensitive aren't we?

At least Mitt (and Slick Willie) were governors. They were in charge of large budgets. Heck, our current President was a US Senator, and that is not exactly a great thing these days to put on the resume.

You're the one who casually suggested that he hadn't worked a day in his life (which Kepler agreed with) and then explained it away by saying he'd never RUN a business before. That's not even close to being the same thing, especially since Obama may very well have been in charge of his own office in Chicago.

Good call to play fast and loose with the facts and then call me sensitive because I call you on it. I'm sure your attempted distraction will fool so many people!

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

You're the one who casually suggested that he hadn't worked a day in his life (which Kepler agreed with) and then explained it away by saying he'd never RUN a business before. That's not even close to being the same thing, especially since Obama may very well have been in charge of his own office in Chicago.

Good call to play fast and loose with the facts and then call me sensitive because I call you on it. I'm sure your attempted distraction will fool so many people!

Fast and Furious?

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

Kids are being educated in trailers...ever see the school adminstrators working in a trailer? They cut music teachers that have been there for decades but increase administrative staff by 1 million people. Schools have to share nurses, gym class is a shell of what it used to be, schools can't fund freshman sports anymore, kids have to pay fees to be in the band, on the football team etc. but we have $210B a year for 2.5 million extra people and you want to debate whether the author cherry picked the years?

This same process exists in higher education. More and more classes are handed over to low-paid, non-permanent instructional staff. Don't waste any tears on regular faculty; they're doing OK. Mean wages are roughly keeping pace with inflation. But they're not skyrocketing. So . . . if tuition is increasing 3x as fast as inflation, and the average salary of instructional faculty is flat or decreasing (more and more adjunct staff) -- where the bloody hell is the money going? Part of it is skyrocketing admin costs. But part of it also is going to "country club" facilities (recreational, dorms, etc) and hugely expensive niche programs designed to stay one step ahead of (rival college). Priorities are just out of whack.

You see the same thing in publishing. Pearson Longman puts out a text with glossy paper, more images and sidebars than a 4th-grade history text, tons of pre-made tests and powerpoints (to appeal to the adjunct crowd), and charges $139. For a 6x9 softcover (e-rental for the low, low price of 99). Princeton Univ Press puts out a competing product, no frills, only one color of ink (black), and sells it for 44.95. 2 books (min) per class times 5 classes times 8 semesters, and sooner or later that difference gets to be real money.

I wonder what force is powerful enough to change the current situation, and increasingly I'm coming up with just one answer. Crashing demand. Sooner or later (getting to be sooner), kids and parents won't put up with that crap. They're not going to sign the loans even if DoE guarantees them. The question is: when the retrenchment happens, will we keep the country club and cut costs in instruction or keep instruction and cut the other fat (this is where my personal interest is engaged; not so much in k-12). There was practically a riot at UVA last month over this sort of thing.

Bonus question: what's the ratio of admin offices to classrooms in the 2 buildings in the foreground of the pic below?

Answer? (divide by 0 error)

 

[geezer]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

So you don't consider community organizing to be work? Fascinating concept.

awwww it's so darn CUTE how you're all behind yer guy 100% in all this. Of COURSE "community organizer" just like real work. Of course it is. You keep the faith baby.