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Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

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Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

I'll put the answer to that conspiracy theory this way: they matter as much as O's Columbia transcripts do.

To put it another way: Harry Reid yesterday refused to release his own tax returns (and he's been O's main attack dog on this earth-shaking issue).

See, I don't see how the Columbia transcripts relate to me.

However, Romney being able to pay only 13.9% in taxes on the return he released while I'm paying much much more than that really ticks me off. If the 0% charge is true it would tick me off even more. Of course I'm not delusional enough to think I'll ever be that rich like some of the backwoods southerners.
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

However, Romney being able to pay only 13.9% in taxes on the return he released while I'm paying much much more than that really ticks me off.

naturally, lost in the noise is that he gave more money to charity than he paid in taxes.

he didn't write the tax laws, if you are going to be ticked off, blame Congress. It's their scam: pretend to raise taxes on the rich while giving them back-door access to special-interest deductions. It's how they raise campaign contributions, keep messing with the tax laws, keep the revolving door open for various lobbying groups to come in with their paper bags full of cash.....:(
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

See, I don't see how the Columbia transcripts relate to me.

However, Romney being able to pay only 13.9% in taxes on the return he released while I'm paying much much more than that really ticks me off. If the 0% charge is true it would tick me off even more. Of course I'm not delusional enough to think I'll ever be that rich like some of the backwoods southerners.

But is your aggravation personal or is it against the tax code which allows the rich to keep all their investment income? We all know the tax code is screwed up already, I don't think we need to see Mr. and Mrs. Romney's personal returns to prove it. Would it change your vote if it was shown he paid no taxes last year? Somehow I think you'll vote (D) every time, no matter what. So what does he gain by putting it out there? He proves to the partisan dems that he's a selfish cheater, and he proves to the partisan repubs that he's a "smart fiscal conservative" even if neither one is true (provided the returns show no illegal activity)
So again: it's a non-issue.
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

naturally, lost in the noise is that he gave more money to charity than he paid in taxes.

he didn't write the tax laws, if you are going to be ticked off, blame Congress. It's their scam: pretend to raise taxes on the rich while giving them back-door access to special-interest deductions. It's how they raise campaign contributions, keep messing with the tax laws, keep the revolving door open for various lobbying groups to come in with their paper bags full of cash.....:(

Mittens doesn't get off that easy. Outsourcing jobs to slave laborers in China isn't technically illegal (as long as you don't ask too many questions as to who exactly is doing the work) but it doesn't make it right. Likewise, exploiting loopholes in the tax laws particularly by parking assets in offshore accounts is sleazy. No nobody is recommending the man face criminal sanctions for his actions, but clearly even for someone with hundreds of millions of dollars money comes ahead of country when he does stuff like this. Don't need a man like that as President if he doesn't feel the need to put America First.
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

naturally, lost in the noise is that he gave more money to charity than he paid in taxes.

he didn't write the tax laws, if you are going to be ticked off, blame Congress. It's their scam: pretend to raise taxes on the rich while giving them back-door access to special-interest deductions. It's how they raise campaign contributions, keep messing with the tax laws, keep the revolving door open for various lobbying groups to come in with their paper bags full of cash.....:(

i don't think he 'works'... so the majority of his living income would be taxed at a cap gains rate rather than income tax.

also, when did % paid become more important than $ paid?

anyways -- how people who didn't make the tax rules should be held to a higher standard because they follow them is asinine.
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Mittens doesn't get off that easy. Outsourcing jobs to slave laborers in China isn't technically illegal (as long as you don't ask too many questions as to who exactly is doing the work) but it doesn't make it right. Likewise, exploiting loopholes in the tax laws particularly by parking assets in offshore accounts is sleazy. No nobody is recommending the man face criminal sanctions for his actions, but clearly even for someone with hundreds of millions of dollars money comes ahead of country when he does stuff like this. Don't need a man like that as President if he doesn't feel the need to put America First.

It's funny to me that people like you say "put America First" when you're talking about what people in the opposing party ought to do.
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

some more empirical data from the Congressional Budget Office....

The top 5%, top 1% and top 0.1% of Americans have been getting a bigger slice of all the income and paying a growing share of federal taxes.

To measure the tax burden over time, Congressional Budget Office economists look beyond income-tax returns. They add federal income, payroll, excise and corporate taxes and calculate them as a percentage of income, broadly defined to include wages plus the value of government- and employer-provided benefits.

From Ronald Reagan to Barack Obama, the tax code has been tweaked and the economy has had its ups and downs, and the share of federal taxes paid by the top 5% and the top 1% has risen faster than their share of income:

In the 1980s, the top 5% averaged 22.6% of income and paid 28.5% of taxes.
In the 1990s, the top 5% averaged 25.3% of income and paid 34.3% of taxes
In the 2000s, the top 5% averaged 28.4% of the income and paid 40.3% of the taxes

Average tax rates have come down for everyone. On average, the tax bite on the rich is bigger—except for those whose income mainly comes from capital gains and dividends.

Across the earnings spectrum, Americans' share of income that went to taxes fell in the 1980s, rose in the 1990s and fell again in the 2000s. This year, taxes and other receipts will cover only two-thirds of federal spending; the government will borrow the rest.

For those in the top 1%, whose incomes are more volatile than others, the average tax bite in 2007 was 28.9%, below the 1995 Clinton-era peak (35.3%) but higher than the 1986 Reagan-era trough (24.6%.)

Most Americans, though, have seen the share of their income that goes to taxes fall steadily. For earners in the middle, the tax bite eased from 18.9% in 1979 to 16.6% in 1999 to 14% in 2007 even before the recession and recession-fighting tax cuts.

The share of taxes paid by the bottom 40% of the population has been shrinking along with their share of income. In 2007, the bottom 40% received 14.9% of the income (including the value of government benefits) and paid 5.9% of all federal taxes. In 1979, they had a bigger share (17.4%) of the income and paid more (9.5%) of the taxes.

A growing number of Americans don't pay any income tax. They don't make enough or live on Social Security or are getting tax breaks targeted at low-wage workers.

In 2011, according to the Tax Policy Center, about 46% of households didn't pay any U.S. income taxes, a proportion swollen because so many have seen paychecks shrink or evaporate. But even in the better years of the mid-2000s, roughly 40% of households didn't pay any federal income tax.

Many did get hit by the payroll tax, which helps finance Social Security and Medicare. But about one-fifth of households didn't pay either federal income or payroll taxes; many did pay state and local taxes.


So the share of federal taxes paid by the rich has generally been increasing, while the share of federal taxes on the poor has been declining.

BUT NOT ENOUGH, right guys? ;)


but guess what.....if you taxed the rich at 100%, you still don't have enough revenue to fund Obama's grandiose "investments" he's promising everyone....and interest on the national debt is deceptively low, giving us way way way too much compacency about the true magnitude of the deficit.....so where will that money come from?

Hmm....if the rich don't have enough, and the poor can't be asked for more....who's left to pick up the tab?

Sorry, Scooby, you can't blame this mess on the Boomers, it wasn't them that voted in favor of Obamanomics.....
 
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Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

.... Don't need a man like that as President if he doesn't feel the need to put America First.

did you walk in this morning and resign because the place you work outsources jobs to asia?
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Mittens doesn't get off that easy. .... Likewise, exploiting loopholes in the tax laws particularly by parking assets in offshore accounts is sleazy. .....


How would you like us to examine your tax returns? I'm sure you never ever once did anything even remotely questionable, eh?

Gee, Romney followed they law, so let's excoriate him and give the lawmakers a free pass!
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

some more empirical data from the Congressional Budget Office....




So the share of federal taxes paid by the rich has generally been increasing, while the share of federal taxes on the poor has been declining.

BUT NOT ENOUGH, right guys? ;)


but guess what.....if you taxed the rich at 100%, you still don't have enough revenue to fund Obama's grandiose "investments" he's promising everyone....and interest on the national debt is deceptively low, giving us way way way too much compacency about the true magnitude of the deficit.....so where will that money come from?

Hmm....if the rich don't have enough, and the poor can't be asked for more....who's left to pick up the tab?

Sorry, Scooby, you can't blame this mess on the Boomers, it wasn't them that voted in favor of Obamanomics.....

You still don't get it do you.

The reason they pay all the taxes is THEY HAVE ALL THE ASSETS. The percentage of the pie for the rich is going up, not down.

For example. My increase was 3% last year. The average CEO increase in Minnesota was 26%. That means their percentage of the tax pie went up way more than mine did. Why is that so difficult for you folks to understand???
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

For example. My increase was 3% last year. The average CEO increase in Minnesota was 26%. That means their percentage of the tax pie went up way more than mine did. Why is that so difficult for you folks to understand???

then what? what do you want? robin hood?
if you don't like how you are compensated vs your CEO, quit. do you expect the gov'ment to step in and tell them to even out the pay?

what?
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

then what? what do you want? robin hood?
if you don't like how you are compensated vs your CEO, quit. do you expect the gov'ment to step in and tell them to even out the pay?

what?

I was only arguing why the rich were paying more and more in taxes. I was not complaining about my compensation. Shocking that you missed that.

There are plenty of charts on the Internet that show what's happened over the last 30 years with income disparity. For the rich to now whine that they are paying the vast majority of taxes while at the same time controlling much more of the pie is asnine.
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

this is not something that needs to be argued over... we all get it.

No, I don't think most of America does get it. Every time this argument comes up all we ever hear over and over again is the percentage of Federal Taxes the rich are paying is too high, and the percentage of people that are not paying Income Taxes is too low.

And I personally find both of those premises utter and complete BS.
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

then what? what do you want? robin hood?
if you don't like how you are compensated vs your CEO, quit. do you expect the gov'ment to step in and tell them to even out the pay?

what?

Higher taxes on the wealthy to pay for programs that help motivated people in the middle class become wealthy (college loans, small business tax breaks, catastrophic health insurance) and help motivated people among the poor become middle class (birth control, day care, job retraining, universal health care, increased public education spending for impoverished school districts).

Regulations and taxation always promote a particular vision of society. The one we have operated under for the last 30 years stresses the ever increasing affluence of the wealthy. It was an interesting theory and it failed completely (it even failed for the wealthy when the Wall Street casino they worked so hard to create cratered). The one we had for the prior 50 years stressed the ever increasing security of the middle class. It was the greatest economic success in the history of the world.

More Ike, less Dubya.
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

The reason they pay all the taxes is THEY HAVE ALL THE ASSETS. The percentage of the pie for the rich is going up, not down.

What part of "their share of taxes went up faster than their share of income" is difficult for you to comprehend?

Of course in a progressive tax system the "rich" pay more than anyone else...duh.

Taxes on the rich have increased faster than the income of the rich.


Those statistics you cite are flawed because they do not include apples-to-apples comparisons. Business owners used to file separate personal and corporate tax returns, and so the baseline understates income compared to today, when most business owners declare business income on their personal returns instead. Meanwhile, the statistics for the poor also are skewed because the value of government benefits they receive generally are excluded from their measure of "income."

So we'll overweight the income of the "rich" and underweight the income of the "poor" and then be all outraged?

Envy is really pernicious, you know....as long as you are fine with what you have, why should you resent someone else having more, merely because they have more? Isn't that childish and petty?



What a campaign: Mr. Mumbles vs Mr. Envy. ych. too bad we can't say "none of the above, we want a better choice."
 
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Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

More Ike, less .
FDR wannabe. The economy only started to recover after FDR dropped his class warfare shtick. It's pretty standard orthodoxy today that FDR's anti-business rhetoric and practices prolonged the Depression, even his own advisors, particularly Morgenthau, realized that eventually.
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Envy is really pernicious, you know....as long as you are fine with what you have, why should you resent someone else having more, merely because they have more? Isn't that childish and petty?

This is the great false narrative. It's always been the refuge of the strong. "You only want to destroy the aristocracy out of envy."

Don't you understand that for many (most) of us it has nothing to do with envy at all? It's an argument about the best way to promote a thriving economy and a healthy, optimistic citizenry?

Someone who has a strong argument puts forward the best case against them. Someone who has a weak argument resorts to strawmen and insinuating base motivations to their opponents. That sort of rhetoric just shows that the argument can't win on the merits.
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

You still don't get it do you.

The reason they pay all the taxes is THEY HAVE ALL THE ASSETS. The percentage of the pie for the rich is going up, not down.

For example. My increase was 3% last year. The average CEO increase in Minnesota was 26%. That means their percentage of the tax pie went up way more than mine did. Why is that so difficult for you folks to understand???

You got a 3% raise last year? rich basturd! :p
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

FDR wannabe. The economy only started to recover after FDR dropped his class warfare shtick. It's pretty standard orthodoxy today that FDR's anti-business rhetoric and practices prolonged the Depression, even his own advisors, particularly Morgenthau, realized that eventually.
Falsehood.

That revisionist argument still only holds favor with the hard right. The conventional wisdom is that FDR got scared and pulled back from his policies too early, trying to balance the budget before demand had kicked back in. That's what prolonged the depression.

FDR saved capitalism, son. Them's the facts.
 
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