Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

[duper]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Isn't it wonderful, you're free to make up your mind on these matters and act according to your conscience. Without bullying from pandering politicians. We all have those rights. The "gay rights" leg breakers evidently aren't aware of that.

Neither are the fag-bashing politicians who believe that being gay is a valid reason to lose some of your civil rights. And yep, until recently, that included Obama. Who I like. And who I will vote for. Again. Because, like you, Obama, and everyone else on earth, I am not totally consistent in everything I do.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Neither are the fag-bashing politicians who believe that being gay is a valid reason to lose some of your civil rights. And yep, until recently, that included Obama. Who I like. And who I will vote for. Again. Because, like you, Obama, and everyone else on earth, I am not totally consistent in everything I do.

You realize how weak tu quoque argumentation is, don't you? Whatever it is that hardcore anti-gay, flag waving, right wing politicians do, does not excuse the extremism of the people who believe they have the right and the obligation to punish someone because of his private religious beliefs. Besides, off the top of my head, I can't think of any mainstream conservatives wanting to shut other people up. Libstains have pretty much cornered the market on that.

And His Oneness is also a liar by the clock. But hey, "wink, wink, nudge, nudge."

 

[duper]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

You realize how weak tu quoque argumentation is, don't you?

Yes. Tu quoque is your favorite kind of argument. Whenever someone says something like "I do not care to support Chick-Fil-A because of their values with which I personally disagree" you respond with "but Rahm Emanuel is a fascist!"

Whatever it is that hardcore anti-gay, flag waving, right wing politicians do, does not excuse the extremism of the people who believe they have the right and the obligation to punish someone because of his private religious beliefs. And off the top of my head, I can't think of any mainstream conservatives wanting to shut other people up. Libstains have pretty much cornered the market on that.

Sadly, it isn't just hard-core right wingers who are anti-gay. It seems to be mainstream, among both liberal and conservative politicians, to believe that some people do not deserve civil rights. (Conservatives in general do seem to be much more inflexible on the issue.)

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

I understood quite well.

In fact, I did comment on what you said. I said, in 2 separate posts, that the politicians who threatened to prevent the store from opening in their area crossed the line. I'm not sure what more you want me to say than that. Should I change my opinion because three politicians acted like fascist jerks? Or is it because three DEMOCRAT politicians acted like fascist jerks that I should change my opinion?

Hard to evaluate your opinion, since in the post I responded to, you suggested I didn't respect the rights of individuals to protest. Which is pure horse collar. And another flight into boiler plate.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Sadly, it isn't just hard-core right wingers who are anti-gay. It seems to be mainstream, among both liberal and conservative politicians, to believe that some people do not deserve civil rights. (Conservatives in general do seem to be much more inflexible on the issue.)

lolwut?

 

[duper]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

The government officials over-stepped their bounds. I am glad that they spoke their minds. They have every right to, and they should have. Indicating that they could prevent a legally operating business from opening was dumb. On the other hand, I absolutely think that an alderman of a district with a large gay community should say something publicly about how his constituents may feel about a business that supports anti-gay causes opening in that district.

Saying he'll stop it? No. If he had said that his constituents may not welcome them, and left it at that? Fine. Good, in fact (in my opinion).

As for those who are deciding personally no longer to support those anti-gay causes by patronizing a business that proudly supports them. Also good.

As for those who go out of their way to support that business and those causes. Good, too, even though I believe that the cause in question is misguided, bigoted, and un-American.

I'm sorry that this is difficult for you to evaluate. It seems extraordinarily straight-forward to me.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Yes. Tu quoque is your favorite kind of argument. Whenever someone says something like "I do not care to support Chick-Fil-A because of their values with which I personally disagree" you respond with "but Rahm Emanuel is a fascist!"

Sadly, it isn't just hard-core right wingers who are anti-gay. It seems to be mainstream, among both liberal and conservative politicians, to believe that some people do not deserve civil rights. (Conservatives in general do seem to be much more inflexible on the issue.)

I'll give $100 in your name to the DU Ascend campaign if you can provide one example where I have used the word "fascist" to desribe the Rahmster. I try to avoid tu quoque argumentation. And suggesting I have have engaged in it (which I deny) as justification for your tu quoque arguments is ANOTHER tu quoqe argument.

Honest to God, you're so pregnant with celestial fire on this issue you can't see the forest for the trees. Is that polite, decorous statement about disagreeing with CFA, etc. actually what's been said. Or how it's been said? Who knew?

 

[duper]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

lolwut?

I think marriage is a civil right. Many politicians on both sides of the aisle, who are not considered extremist, believe that this particular civil right should be denied to a fairly significant portion of our society.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

I'm sorry that this is difficult for you to evaluate. It seems extraordinarily straight-forward to me.

I was responding to post #111. Now you're just being childish.

 

[duper]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

I'll give $100 in your name to the DU Ascend campaign if you can provide one example where I have used the word "fascist" to desribe the Rahmster. I try to avoid tu quoque argumentation. And suggesting I have have engaged in it (which I deny) is ANOTHER tu quoqe argument.

You have not used the word fascist. Out of curiosity, what do you call someone who tries to use his political power to silence someone else? I called them fascist. My point was simple; you suggested that my opinion was silly, (this might be crossing "duper's line" or some such condescending comment) presenting as evidence that Rahm Emanuel behaved in a way that I myself would describe as fascist. I'm not sure what Rahm's behavior has to do with my opinion.

 

[duper]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

I was responding to post #111. Now you're just being childish.

fire with fire, quite frankly.

Edit: and I will release this thread back to it's actual purpose for the night.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

You have not used the word fascist. Out of curiosity, what do you call someone who tries to use his political power to silence someone else? I called them fascist. My point was simple; you suggested that my opinion was silly, (this might be crossing "duper's line" or some such condescending comment) presenting as evidence that Rahm Emanuel behaved in a way that I myself would describe as fascist. I'm not sure what Rahm's behavior has to do with my opinion.

You really shouldn't take yourself or your opinion so seriously. I know, I know, who am I to talk? What I did was gently tease you by suggesting that CFA's faced with condomless (or is it condimentless?) demonstrations should respond with a charm offensive of free food and beverages. And that any gay employees should be prominently displayed. And added, as much as a dig at myself as you, that if I were in charge, I'd have those employees wearing pink triangles.

This is a company that has violated no laws nor advocated violating any laws, yet the ideological Gestapo is out there, wanting to crush them. As opposed to politely but insistently letting the company know how sincerely they disagree with company policy on gay marriage. A position, BTW, not at variance with a majority of Americans. 31 states have approved referenda against gay marriage. Personally, I don't give a sh*t. But I do care about people who lecture endlessly about "tolerance, diversity and inclusion" being just as intolerant as some Mississippi Klansmen.

No evidence, or even suggestion that CFA has discriminated against anybody, for anything, including sexual orientation. Just as there is no evidence or suggestion they've ever advocated discriminating against anybody, for anything, including sexual orientation.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

You really shouldn't take yourself or your opinion so seriously. I know, I know, who am I to talk? What I did was gently tease you by suggesting that CFA's faced with condomless demonstrations should respond with a charm offensive of free food and beverages. And that any gay employees should be prominently displayed. And added, as much as a dig at myself as you, that if I were in charge, I'd have those employees wearing pink triangles.


This is a company that has violated no laws nor advocated violating any laws, yet the ideological Gestapo is out there, wanting to crush them. As opposed to politely but insistently letting the company know how sincerely they disagree with company policy on gay marriage. A position, BTW, not at variance with a majority of Americans. 31 states have approved referenda against gay marriage. Personally, I don't give a sh*t. But I do care about people who lecture endlessly about "tolerance, diversity and inclusion" being just as intolerant as some Mississippi Klansmen.

No evidence, or even suggestion that CFA has discriminated against anybody, for anything, including sexual orientation. Just as there is no evidence or suggestion they've ever advocated discriminating against anybody, for anything, including sexual orientation.

Even the ACLU spoke out against the thought police in this case.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Even the ACLU spoke out against the thought police in this case.

And they aren't the only ones. I just don't understand why people can't grasp the larger issue here: that it's always wrong to contemplate using government to punish an individual or corporation merely for expressing their sincerely held religious beliefs. This is a road down which I assume none of us want to go.

As I said earlier, you either believe in the First Amendment or you don't. This whole dustup reminds me of the old Jack Benny gag. A guy with a gun stops him on the street and says: "Your money or your life." No response. The guy repeats: "Your money or your life." And Benny says: "I'm thinking it over." Many folks arguing here in favor of the extra-legal Jihad against CFA, put me in mind of Benny, at least as far as their support for the First Amendment is concerned. They're thinking it over.

 

[duper]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

And they aren't the only ones. I just don't understand why people can't grasp the larger issue here: that it's always wrong to contemplate using government to punish an individual or corporation merely for expressing their sincerely held religious beliefs. This is a road down which I assume none of us want to go.

agreed. I think people's agreement with this is clear. I have seen exactly zero people here disagree. And for the record, I mock myself on these boards pretty regularly. I find it pretty amusing that you truly believe that I take myself overly seriously.

Food for thought

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

agreed. I think people's agreement with this is clear. I have seen exactly zero people here disagree. And for the record, I mock myself on these boards pretty regularly. I find it pretty amusing that you truly believe that I take myself overly seriously.

Food for thought

*sighs* I was referring to one specific post wherein you gave off the aura of a jilted prom date. I offered no opinion on your reputation or history.

Interesting, I worked in Baton Rouge after I got out of the AF. That fire in NO evidently occurred before I got there. Don't recall ever hearing a word about it. The "common wisdom" in those days was that the two biggest, gaudiest and most successful gay bars in NO were mob owned. For some odd reason, no fires, no gay bashing, no trouble of any kind, hmm. Must have been a coincidence.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

agreed. I think people's agreement with this is clear. I have seen exactly zero people here disagree. And for the record, I mock myself on these boards pretty regularly. I find it pretty amusing that you truly believe that I take myself overly seriously.

Food for thought

The intolerance here is coming only from one direction. Remember what that fat, ugly, no talent, crotch grabbing beyotch said: "People who eat at Chick-fil-a "deserve" to get cancer." And I'm not aware of any of the people for whom she claims to speak telling her to shut the eff up. Are you?

The response to speech you don't like is more speech. So send a check to whatever group you think best respresents your point of view and stands the best chance of convincing the most people. What flows from freedom of religion is the right to support any group that furthers your religious point of view. And that freedom extends to all of us on any issue. So this conspiratorial, eyebrows raised "but they give money to hard right anti-gay groups" is so much piffle.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Tu quoque, ad hominem...this thread's a veritable Latin nerdfest.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Tu quoque, ad hominem...this thread's a veritable Latin nerdfest.

The milk just came out of my nose.

If you want to sympathize with some totally innocent people in this kerfuffle, think about the poor kids at those CFA restaurants, who don't have an ideological dog in this hunt, who nevertheless had to work like Roman galley slaves all day yesterday.

 

[duper]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

The intolerance here is coming only from one direction. Remember what that fat, ugly, no talent, crotch grabbing beyotch said: "People who eat at Chick-fil-a "deserve" to get cancer." And I'm not aware of any of the people for whom she claims to speak telling her to shut the eff up. Are you?

The response to speech you don't like is more speech. So send a check to whatever group you think best respresents your point of view and stands the best chance of convincing the most people. What flows from freedom of religion is the right to support any group that furthers your religious point of view. And that freedom extends to all of us on any issue. So this conspiratorial, eyebrows raised "but they give money to hard right anti-gay groups" is so much piffle.

Actually, I don't remember what Roseanne said. I only know she said anything at all because you have mentioned it. I might have told Roseanne to shut up if I thought ANYONE took her seriously, but I don't think anyone takes her seriously. What she said is so obviously outrageous that I think the best course of action is to ignore it.

And I don't have money to give to pro-gay causes, so I will respond by making a point of NOT supporting companies who vocally support anti-gay ones.

And as I have said, I agree wholeheartedly that the people who work at the stores absolutely do not deserve abuse over this.