Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

8-0-2 in the RS the prior 5 years, though...

And your historically highly touted goaltender lost to a team that was ready to go D-III, too...

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Isn't she the poster child for the Tea Party? It's always been about her.

While she's had some identification with the Tea Party, I don't think it's remotely every been about her. Much more of a grass roots thing, and she got involved at some point.

 

[geezer]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

With all the caveman activity out here I'm curious why nobody has answered how using Medicare cuts to fund tax cuts for the rich benefits the rest of us? Also why do people over 55 get a free ride?

Thoughts?

No bites huh? I heard yesterday the salmon were hitting near the scum line in about 200' and 50°.

Could it be that the argument has no basis in fact?

 

[pirate]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

I'd really like it if Mitt Romney would answer this question. Apparently he won't answer ANY questions on the differences between he and Ryan's Medicare plans.

This came up on CNN this morning...Sununu outlined 2 differences while arguing with the host. I apologize for not remembering the details but he said in some section, Ryan's plan is more like Obama's* and Romney differs from both of them on that issue (out of hundreds).

Maybe we could come up with a new government department and a 5 year plan to spend $100million coming up with a grading system similar to crude oil, steaks or diamonds to measure and denote the similarities of two legislative proposals and then declare them 73.4% the same.


* so clearly it is Obama's plan

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

I still can't decide whether I think the auto bailouts were a good idea, so I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but I do think you're really overstating your case. Who knows if there even would have been layoffs without the bailout? Companies go bankrupt all the time and continue operations until they can find new investors or work their way through restructuring their debt. The auto companies are only "profitable" now because a huge portion of their debt was swept off the books and into taxpayers' pockets. A normal bankruptcy would have also swept debt off the books, but the liability would have fallen onto their shareholders, pensioners, unions, etc, rather than the general public. "Every employee in the auto industry would have been laid off!!!!!!1!!11!!!" is an incredibly unrealistic strawman and is not useful for comparison purposes.

No, I don't think I'm overstating the impact of GM shutting down operations at all. I believe would have been devatstating in all the ways I stated. Having said that and to your point, I don't know for sure that a shut down is what would have happened. In fact, none of us in the public will ever know this and unfortunately, need to trust those close to those making the decisions to run the scenarios and determine likely outcomes. The problem is that in the end, the stakes were so high as we were at a critical fork in where the country was headed.

 

[Rover]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Could it be that the argument has no basis in fact?

No, that's his plan. Just spreading the truth out here as a public service!

 

[Kepler]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

It's not over till the fat lady sings.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

No, I don't think I'm overstating the impact of GM shutting down operations at all.

I agree that the *impacts* of GM shutting down would have been huge. The part you're overstating is the probability that that would have happened without the bailout.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Do you guys have jobs or anything? Seriously I swear you all wake up and post before even brushing your teeth let alone getting any work done at your "jobs"

 

[geezer]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

It's not over till the fat lady sings.

“the American people are ready to confront those problems head-on and endure some sacrifice.”

Romney will earn my vote if he can convincingly align himself with Christie, Ryan, Walker, etc. as someone willing to make unpopular choices and ask Americans to sacrifice now to save the future. Unfortunately, it appears that nobody is willing to ask that of defense contractors and the lords of the Pentagon. But we've got to start somewhere.

 

[geezer]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Do you guys have jobs or anything? Seriously I swear you all wake up and post before even brushing your teeth let alone getting any work done at your "jobs"

...asks the guy with 25,900 posts.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

While mulling over my General Tso's, I realised something: The government promotes bad behaviour because their revenue stream depends on it.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

I agree that the *impacts* of GM shutting down would have been huge. The part you're overstating is the probability that that would have happened without the bailout.

I see what you are saying, but I guess the question is whether we were willing to risk the worst outcome, particularly at a time when the whole rest of the economy looked like it was collapsing.

The bailout is one of those things whose success undermines its rationale. After the fact, when things stabilize, it looks unnecessary. I assume 50 years from now economists will still be fighting about whether it was necessary. About all we know for sure is that it worked.

 

[huskyfan]

I see what you are saying, but I guess the question is whether we were willing to risk the worst outcome, particularly at a time when the whole rest of the economy looked like it was collapsing.

The bailout is one of those things whose success undermines its rationale. After the fact, when things stabilize, it looks unnecessary. I assume 50 years from now economists will still be fighting about whether it was necessary. About all we know for sure is that it worked.

Seriously? You think it worked?

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Seriously? You think it worked?

Well, if you think that No Bailout = complete shutdown of GM and all its subsidiaries and suppliers, then you're starting from a pretty low bar. We'll never know what would have happened, so it will forever be a data vs. speculation comparison, which are never satisfying.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Well, if you think that No Bailout = complete shutdown of GM and all its subsidiaries and suppliers, then you're starting from a pretty low bar. We'll never know what would have happened, so it will forever be a data vs. speculation comparison, which are never satisfying.

Yes, that's my point.

It worked compared to catastrophic failure. The question of whether that would really have happened without it is now one for experts and ideologues to debate for as long as the sun continues to shine.

 

[bronconick]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Well, if you think that No Bailout = complete shutdown of GM and all its subsidiaries and suppliers, then you're starting from a pretty low bar. We'll never know what would have happened, so it will forever be a data vs. speculation comparison, which are never satisfying.

IIRC, the auto bailout was during the height of the credit freeze, and if the government hadn't jumped in, the common belief was that the only thing that was going to happen was all the equipment and factories being sold for scrap metal because no one else was willing or even able to make that kind of financial gamble at that moment in time.

It could be my left wing tilted memory, but I thought I remember something like that being debated.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

IIRC, the auto bailout was during the height of the credit freeze, and if the government hadn't jumped in, the common belief was that the only thing that was going to happen was all the equipment and factories being sold for scrap metal because no one else was willing or even able to make that kind of financial gamble at that moment in time.

It could be my left wing tilted memory, but I thought I remember something like that being debated.

You're 100% correct.

A managed bankruptcy would have been the end of GM.

 

[mookie1995]

While mulling over my General Tso's, I realised something: The government promotes bad behaviour because their revenue stream depends on it.

Nobody who spends $$$$$$ than they make gives a crap about their revenue stream

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

You're 100% correct.

A managed bankruptcy would have been the end of GM.

I'm really not that close to it to know if that's true.

But if it was true, then I'm confident that saving GM/Chrysler would have turn have turned out to be the right move based on the size of crater it would have left and it happening during the worst of the crisis.