Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

[oldguard]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Assuming Charlie's original supposition is correct and Hawk's list of teams is close (IMHO, UNE would move on to ECACNE), here is my guess at travel partner pairings:

Babson and NEC
Castleton and Norwich
Skidmore and Utica
Elmira and Hobart
Manhattanville and Neumann

There certainly are some long trips involved but it would seem that the desire for a competitive league with an AQ would trump the travel concerns. This arrangement would create 19 in conference games and would allow for 6 OOC games, thereby allowing the continuation of many long time rivalry games for each team.

Whoops! I think it would create 18 in conference games with 7 OOC. With 7 OOC games, there would be plenty of opportunities for games that would provide a fairly large sample size of results that would help make a valid comparison of relative strengths of the different conferences for use in determining Pool C berths and post season seeding.

 

[oldguard]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Okay, I'm curious. How would you get to 19 games? 18 is easy, as you play everyone twice.

Hammer,
You are too quick, you got me before I could get my correction posted.

 

[Hammer]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

I thought you saw something I didn't. 18 makes a lot of sense for 10 team conference. At 11 teams you've got to go to 20, but someone would be either on a bye or looking at a non-conference game each weekend. You're asking for a mess at 11.

I also had a really stupid idea. I was going to suggest playing your own division 4 times, and the other division twice, only to discover that Elmira's division would be playing 28 conference games, and Norwich's division would be looking at 30. I'm spending too much time in front of my computer today.

 

[NUProf]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

The speculation is that we could end up with 10 teams and UNE heading to the ECAC NE


If you make two 5 team divisions, the following scenario works: (sort of)

You could play each team in your division 3 times (makes 12 games) and each team in the other division 1 time for 17 games.
Advantage: Reduces the number of long East vs. West trips.
Disadvantage: Sort of blows the whole travel partner idea out of the water because one team in each division doesn't get a travel partner.



There is a small problem with a 10 team league with travel partners and playing each team two times. Every league weekend on pair has to sit out because there are 5 pairs. You could manage it by having those teams play each other once each time their bye came up. That would eliminate the need for midweek travel partner games.

Did I tell you I know combinatorics?

 

[joecct]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Nothing released yet on the meeting, I am leaning towards the formation of a league with the ECAC East and West merging to form what could turn out to be the most competitive DIII league.

Great minds do think alike. But it's only 1 AQ coming out of that conference and then what about the Pool C's??? No doubt the current West philosophy that all Pool C bids belong to the ECAC-W will continue....

As to the travel -- when you have an East-West matchup, you play 2x games @ one site and then alternate back to the other barn next year.. Thus Norwich would play 2 games @ Elmira in year 1 and Elmira would play 2 @ Norwich in year 2. Saves on long distance bus rides (I think).

 

[hockeyfan77]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

I would think that the super-conference would be a huge problem for the northern-most ECAC East teams and for the western-most ECAC West teams because of the travel involved. I suspect that that proves one of the reason why USM is looking at the MASCAC. I just did some quick checking as to the mileage for some of these trips and its 450 miles between USM and Neumann and 470 miles between Elmira and USM. And the trips to Hobart and Elmira are long too (334 and 370 miles respectively). Knock 15-20 miles off and that will give you some idea of the distance between UNE and the various western schools. I'm going to guess that UNE will end up heading for the ECAC NE for travel-related reasons. The trips are quite as long between NEC and the ECAC West trips but they are still kind of bad.

This sucks for USM...Now they get to play in a league with only 2 or 3 teams have their own rink...I think it's too much to ask USM to travel to Penn though: so basically the interlock dies and USM gets kicked out of the ECAC East (yes it pretty much happened)...So for all the joy over this new league: it really sucks for the teams from Maine...Not happy, not happy at all...

 

[d3follower]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

This sucks for USM...Now they get to play in a league with only 2 or 3 teams have their own rink...I think it's too much to ask USM to travel to Penn though: so basically the interlock dies and USM gets kicked out of the ECAC East (yes it pretty much happened)...So for all the joy over this new league: it really sucks for the teams from Maine...Not happy, not happy at all...

Yeah - I'm with you on this. All the good work to develop the USM program to where it is and suddenly marginalized by the apparently cascading dominoes and that accident of geography. I can't see any way for USM or UNE to participate in this new league, where the geographic center will be much closer to NY than to the heart of New England. I'm kind of wondering what the Babson and NEC folks will think about it when they chart out their travel schedules - it won't be as bad for them as it will be for USM and UNE but both Babson and NEC going to lose all their close-by rivals (UMB, Tufts, Conn Coll, St. A, Bowdoin, and Colby plus of course USM and UNE) with this re-orientation and will be doing a lot more traveling than they do now.

 

[hawk]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

This sucks for USM...Now they get to play in a league with only 2 or 3 teams have their own rink...I think it's too much to ask USM to travel to Penn though: so basically the interlock dies and USM gets kicked out of the ECAC East (yes it pretty much happened)...So for all the joy over this new league: it really sucks for the teams from Maine...Not happy, not happy at all...

I am no insider but from what I have been hearing USM was in the process of joing the MASCAC along with possible UMASS Boston. If USM and Mass-Boston stayed in and you added Curry and Wentworth that would of resulted in a strong league, maybe not as strong as the interlock but still good. I can see with all the talk of defection the ECAC E taking a proactive postion to give the remaining teams as strong a league as possible.

I think a lot of the moves were made to make a league attractive for recruits and fans. If the ECAC E is a weaker league that would help the SUNYAC and MASCAC. If the super league is created it should be an attractive distination for any highly skilled player. Stayed tuned.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

By my count the league would have the following teams:
West:
Elmira
Hobart
Manhattanville
Neumann
Utica

East:
Babson
Castleton
NEC
Norwich
Skidmore
UNE

You would have a total of 11 league teams; teams could play each other twice for a total of 20 league games. Since there is an uneven number of teams in the east maybe one game could be cut out to limit travel for the west teams. It would be great to limit games to 17 or 18 to allow teams to play the USA Under 18 teams or maybe a Canadian college team like McGill.
Wonder what the west fans opinion on a combined ECAC league.

The NCAA mileages - based on Norwich:

Norwich to:
Elmira: 348 miles
Hobart: 323 miles
Manhattanville: 278 miles
Neumann: 425 miles
Utica: 227 miles
Babson: 182 miles
Castleton: 78 miles
NEC: 106 miles
Skidmore: 131 miles
UNE: 203 miles

 

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

The NCAA mileages - based on Norwich:

If UNE leaves, Norwich-Elmira will be the longest single haul of the conference. According to NCAA NEC to Elmira is 324... less than Norwich to Elmira

 

[norm1909]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

If UNE leaves, Norwich-Elmira will be the longest single haul of the conference. According to NCAA NEC to Elmira is 324... less than Norwich to Elmira

When I ran Elmira to New England College, it came back as 323 miles - Exactly the same as Norwich to Hobart BUT that is nevertheless 25 miles less than the 348 miles it is from Norwich to Elmira

 

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

You would have a total of 11 league teams; teams could play each other twice for a total of 20 league games. Since there is an uneven number of teams in the east maybe one game could be cut out to limit travel for the west teams. It would be great to limit games to 17 or 18 to allow teams to play the USA Under 18 teams or maybe a Canadian college team like McGill.
Wonder what the west fans opinion on a combined ECAC league.

When was the last time McGill played a DIII team? Seems their American opponents these days are all DI. The DIII schools (even the powerhouse DIII schools) get the bottomfeeders of CIS for their exhibition.

Case in point: Plattsburgh played Concordia University, beat them 7-2. That loss counted for Concordia, although the win did not count for Plattsburgh. Concordia went 8-20-0 in conference, 0-2-0 in non-conference competition (1 game against Plattsburgh and 1 game against Waterloo), 1-4 against European Competition in exhibitions, and lost OUA playoffs first round series against UQTR in 3 games (best-of-3 series)

Concordia went 0-4 on the season head-to-head with McGill. Scores were:
5-2 Away
12-3 Away
11-0 Home (ouch...)
4-3OT Home

Yeah, not exactly a powerhouse in CIS these days (although they were in days gone by)

 

[The Real Georgia Peach]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

How about a separate eastern division with the Maine, New Hampshire and eastern Mass teams and a Centra/Westl ECAC division with the VT teams and the NY teams? Norwich & Castleton become members of this league and you get two AQ's.

 

[d3follower]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

How about a separate eastern division with the Maine, New Hampshire and eastern Mass teams and a Centra/Westl ECAC division with the VT teams and the NY teams? Norwich & Castleton become members of this league and you get two AQ's.

How do you get to an AQ for the eastern division?? Or are you thinking of adding Curry and Wentworth to the eastern division so it would be:

USM
UNE
NEC
UMB
Babson
Wentworth
Curry

 

[NUProf]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

I think the essence of your plan is:

1. Take NU, Castleton, and Skidmore and put them into an 8 team ECAC W.

2. Let USM and UMB go to MASCAC which would have 9 teams if that's what they want to do.

3. Take NEC, UNE, and Babson and send them to the ECAC NE which becomes a 10 team league.

4. Let the DIIers fend for themselves.

The downside of that is
a. We (NU) fall into Pool B for two years while we wait the ECAC W to get an autobid.
b. The ECAC NE may not want to accept NEC and Babson (UNE they will take)

If the ECAC NE doesn't want NEC and Babson, guess what - we are back to the 10 team super conference again.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

For comparisons sake, here are the NCAA Mileages for Plattsburgh and their SUNYAC matchups:

Plattsburgh to:
Oswego - 301 miles
Fredonia - 454 miles
Geneseo - 368 miles
Brockport - 369 miles
Potsdam - 88 miles
Morrisville - 250 miles
Cortland - 304 miles
Buffalo State - 411 miles

One-way, each team once: 2545 miles (~318 miles average).

Hawk's proposed matchups:

Norwich to:
Elmira: 348 miles
Hobart: 323 miles
Manhattanville: 278 miles
Neumann: 425 miles
Utica: 227 miles
Babson: 182 miles
Castleton: 78 miles
NEC: 106 miles
Skidmore: 131 miles
UNE: 203 miles

One-way, each team once: 2301 miles (~230 miles average)

Also of note, USM to Neumann is 435 miles - 19 miles LESS than Plattsburgh to Fredonia.

 

[d3follower]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

For comparisons sake, here are the NCAA Mileages for Plattsburgh and their SUNYAC matchups:

Plattsburgh to:
Oswego - 301 miles
Fredonia - 454 miles
Geneseo - 368 miles
Brockport - 369 miles
Potsdam - 88 miles
Morrisville - 250 miles
Cortland - 304 miles
Buffalo State - 411 miles

One-way, each team once: 2545 miles (~318 miles average).

Hawk's proposed matchups:

Norwich to:
Elmira: 348 miles
Hobart: 323 miles
Manhattanville: 278 miles
Neumann: 425 miles
Utica: 227 miles
Babson: 182 miles
Castleton: 78 miles
NEC: 106 miles
Skidmore: 131 miles
UNE: 203 miles

One-way, each team once: 2301 miles (~230 miles average)

Also of note, USM to Neumann is 435 miles - 19 miles LESS than Plattsburgh to Fredonia.

Shouldn't we look at actual miles instead of "NCAA mileage"?? Google maps says that the drive between Plattsburgh and Fredonia is 415 miles and the drive between USM and Neumann is 441 miles.

 

[hockeyfan77]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

I am no insider but from what I have been hearing USM was in the process of joing the MASCAC along with possible UMASS Boston. If USM and Mass-Boston stayed in and you added Curry and Wentworth that would of resulted in a strong league, maybe not as strong as the interlock but still good. I can see with all the talk of defection the ECAC E taking a proactive postion to give the remaining teams as strong a league as possible.

I think USM's hand was forced into joining the MASCAC...There is NO way they will pay for the travel of the "Super League"...So, that leaves them with one choice: join the MASCAC...I hate saying when I don't know what happened but I am guessing this is pretty much how it happened....I find out what's going on soon enough....

 

[MCullen]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

I think USM's hand was forced into joining the MASCAC...There is NO way they will pay for the travel of the "Super League"...So, that leaves them with one choice: join the MASCAC...I hate saying when I don't know what happened but I am guessing this is pretty much how it happened....I find out what's going on soon enough....

Here are the mileages for Southern Maine (if they join the MASCAC):

Fitchburg State: 130 miles
Framingham State: 131 miles
Plymouth State: 79 miles
Salem State: 98 miles
UMass-Boston*: 112 miles
UMass-Dartmouth: 167 miles
Westfield State: 201 miles
Worcester State: 141 miles

*Assuming they join the MASCAC too

 

[norm1909]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

I must agree with a “how did they do that” view of the NCAA mileage calculations, particularly when they show Plattsburgh to Oswego as 301 miles (Google maps is 220) and Plattsburgh to Cortland as 304 (Google maps is ~265), but alas it is an established NCAA “tool”, so IMO, it is the most “realistic” method.

What “will” happen? Well fortunately, this is not a matter for the “smoke filled rooms of the NCAA”; it is all within the realms of the ECAC. While it has been pointed out, that the ECAC parent umbrella is more of a logistics organization providing leadership assistance and other infrastructure support to its members. That said, its members have at least that much “common ground”. What will happen one can only hope, will be what is in the “best interest” of the sport AND its student athletes. What is the “best interest”? IMO, a stable, sustainable alignment of the athletic programs that provide as many mutual-synergistic benefits as possible. Perhaps unfortunately, but nevertheless realistically, the most significant single factor is IMO, the economic factor – with travel cost leading the way. Cost initially leads one to think in terms of dollars, yet when one considers these are student-athletes with the demands of their course load coming (hopefully) first, travel time is also a significant cost. Luckily, these go hand-in-hand, and the historical success of the SUNYAC and their travel considerations leads me to think that just about any combination of ECAC-East & West realignment is economically feasible. What is next? IMO, it should be competitive quality of competition, here too, we are lucky enough that the spectrum of competition across the ECAC-East & West allows for a mutually competitive season.

Yes, the 2010-11 season is yet to see its first puck drop, but then again, we have already learned of the hosting location of the 2012-13 championships – future plans are already in progress – this situation needs a solution now. The NESCAC as already shown there true colors and adopted a self-centered “what’s in for me” exclusive country-club attitude, IMO, good riddance. The ECAC teams have already shown enough confidence in the ECAC to gather under their umbrella, now lets hope that they can quickly come up with a solution that provides what is needed.