Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

[norm1909]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

What have you been drinking/smoking? Norwich has never been in NESCAC, and they never have had a desire to be.

I think he meant (and it is my view) "interlocked with the NESCAC, until the NESCAC ended it", IMO, while I believe (and hope) Norwich would never have a desire to join the NESCAC philosophically, I doubt they were heart broken with the creation of the interlock.

 

[PSUC92]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

What have you been drinking/smoking? Norwich has never been in NESCAC, and they never have had a desire to be.

Really? I thought Norwich has played every NESCAC team in hockey for at least the last 10 years. Maybe you need some of what I have. As for desire--The hockey program has always fought to stay in the interlock and for you to say anything different puts you on the crack list. I have the utmost respect for the Norwich program and its fans, but good luck selling tickets to the Norwich-Framingham State game instead of the Norwich-Williams game.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Really? I thought Norwich has played every NESCAC team in hockey for at least the last 10 years. Maybe you need some of what I have. As for desire--The hockey program has always fought to stay in the interlock and for you to say anything different puts you on the crack list. I have the utmost respect for the Norwich program and its fans, but good luck selling tickets to the Norwich-Framingham State game instead of the Norwich-Williams game.

Its not really the ticket sales, season ticket holders will still be season ticket holders, just like Plattsburgh fans tolerated a minimal number of home contests last year, so will Norwich fans tolerate a NESCAC-less schedule. The sad thing is, the quality and excitement of the game just wont be the same.

 

[d3follower]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Really? I thought Norwich has played every NESCAC team in hockey for at least the last 10 years. Maybe you need some of what I have. . .

History is that Norwich and the NESCAC schools that have had serious hockey programs for a long time (Bowdoin, Middlebury, Williams, Hamilton, and Colby) were all in the old ECAC East together for decades until the NESCAC became a playing conference in 1999. We are talking several decades . . The interlock was, in many respects, a way to continue the rivalries that had existed in the old ECAC East. (The old ECAC East was a big sprawling league that contained all of the top teams in the current ECAC East and the NESCAC, and a bunch of teams that are now D1 (Holy Cross, UConn, Merrimack, AIC, etc.).)

 

[hawk]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Its not really the ticket sales, season ticket holders will still be season ticket holders, just like Plattsburgh fans tolerated a minimal number of home contests last year, so will Norwich fans tolerate a NESCAC-less schedule. The sad thing is, the quality and excitement of the game just wont be the same.

I am somwhat surprised that nothing has leaked yet from the ECAC E meeting this week. With all the talk I wouldn't even guess how the new league is going to be restructured. I am still saying that Norwich would not want to be part of a league that wasn't at least as competitive as the old interlock and look at other alternatives. If Curry and Wentworth can be added to the East Norwich could look to the top SUNYAC and ECAC W teams for out of league games. I have been waiting for years for Norwich to take on Oswego and Geneso in the regular season. I assume that Oswego, Geneso, Elmira, Utica, and Manhattanville feel the same thing. Actually I think the competition could be at least as strong with the new schedule. But as someone said on the board it is a little hard not playing teams you have played for 50+- years.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

I am somwhat surprised that nothing has leaked yet from the ECAC E meeting this week. With all the talk I wouldn't even guess how the new league is going to be restructured. I am still saying that Norwich would not want to be part of a league that wasn't at least as competitive as the old interlock and look at other alternatives. If Curry and Wentworth can be added to the East Norwich could look to the top SUNYAC and ECAC W teams for out of league games. I have been waiting for years for Norwich to take on Oswego and Geneso in the regular season. I assume that Oswego, Geneso, Elmira, Utica, and Manhattanville feel the same thing. Actually I think the competition could be at least as strong with the new schedule. But as someone said on the board it is a little hard not playing teams you have played for 50+- years.

To paraphrase an old proverb - A rival of my rival is my rival.

I have to agree, rivalries are motivators, particularly in-state rivalries such as Middlebury-Norwich or Plattsburgh-Elmira or league rivalries such as Plattsburgh-Oswego give teams and fans both something to look forward to as well as a benchmark (not to mention OWP & OOWP). The high quality of a program such as Norwich certainly affords them options, as they are a desirable opponent for any quality program looking for a truly competitive match up and the opportunity to make a statement. That said, the reality of league commitments, mutual travel/economic concerns, logistical needs for travel partners, and existing scheduling demands of the non-interlock teams will limit their scheduling opportunities. The dissolution of the interlock does create new opportunities, but the realistic availabilities are, for both affected leagues unfortunately very limited (AKA entry barriers).

 

[CROSBYNU63]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Nothing released yet on the meeting, I am leaning towards the formation of a league with the ECAC East and West merging to form what could turn out to be the most competitive DIII league.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Nothing released yet on the meeting, I am leaning towards the formation of a league with the ECAC East and West merging to form what could turn out to be the most competitive DIII league.

Certainly corralling Norwich, Babson, Elmira, Manhattanville, Hobart and Neumann into your stable is certain to create some competitive games for ECAC-East fans. The prospect of matchups with Castleton, Southern Maine, Skidmore, New England College, UMass Boston, or the University New England probably won't leave ECAC-West fans any too excited – though the prospect of an AQ might.

 

[CROSBYNU63]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

My guess is that USM and UMass Boston will be gone to the Mass league. Castleton, NEC and Skidmore can be very good teams. You say "might" in regards to the AQ, I would say their interest would be just a little stronger .

Certainly corralling Norwich, Babson, Elmira, Manhattanville, Hobart and Neumann into your stable is certain to create some competitive games for ECAC-East fans. The prospect of matchups with Castleton, Southern Maine, Skidmore, New England College, UMass Boston, or the University New England probably won't leave ECAC-West fans any too excited – though the prospect of an AQ might.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

My guess is that USM and UMass Boston will be gone to the Mass league. Castleton, NEC and Skidmore can be very good teams. You say "might" in regards to the AQ, I would say their interest would be just a little stronger .

I agree, Castleton, NEC and Skidmore, certainly have shown they have the potential to "kick it up a notch" when facing opponents who might be tempted to "step it down a notch" given their perception of their opponent (note the hyperlinks). That said I tend to dread playing teams like that. The AQ - yeah "might" might be an understatement.

 

[NUProf]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

I agree, Castleton, NEC and Skidmore, certainly have shown they have the potential to "kick it up a notch" when facing opponents who might be tempted to "step it down a notch" given their perception of their opponent (note the hyperlinks). That said I tend to dread playing teams like that. The AQ - yeah "might" might be an understatement.

Looking how they might fit in, these teams are not all that different from some of the teams in the ECAC West. This may not be accurate, but here's a stab at it

Castleton is still a program that is still growing. They have had some up years and some down years. ECAC West equivalent --Utica.

NEC is a program that has up years and down years, but when they are good, you hate to play them in their place. ECAC West equivalent -- Manhattanville

Skidmore is a curiousity. Every once in a while the catch lightning in a bottle and make a run, and other years they lay down and die. ECAC West equivalent - Hobart (except Hobart has been to the dance, and Skidmore never has.)

 

[hawk]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Nothing released yet on the meeting, I am leaning towards the formation of a league with the ECAC East and West merging to form what could turn out to be the most competitive DIII league.

Boy this is the outcome I was hoping for all along. Guaranting a competitve schedule is what everyone seems to be talking about on the board and the super league would do it. Should help big time with recruiting for all the teams. With the ECAC West losing Lebanon Valley the restructure would seem to come at the right time. The question I have is what is happining to competitive hockey in the east. As far as I know some MASCAC teams don't
have full time coaches and is generally considered a less competitive league then the old interlock. I am just suprised that a very compeitive team like Southern Maine droping down a step in competition. SM didn't win the ECAC East title but always played Norwich very competitively. Maybe some west fans will give the name of cheep motels in Western New York. Nice to Norwich and the rest of the ECAC East thinking outside the box to solve a very difficult problem.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Looking how they might fit in, these teams are not all that different from some of the teams in the ECAC West. This may not be accurate, but here's a stab at it

Castleton is still a program that is still growing. They have had some up years and some down years. ECAC West equivalent --Utica.

NEC is a program that has up years and down years, but when they are good, you hate to play them in their place. ECAC West equivalent -- Manhattanville

Skidmore is a curiousity. Every once in a while the catch lightning in a bottle and make a run, and other years they lay down and die. ECAC West equivalent - Hobart (except Hobart has been to the dance, and Skidmore never has.)

I think your correlation is valid, but IMO, 3 per league is enough - though an argument might be made that amongst themselves, they have a "fighting chance", so 6 might provide "their fans" some better competition, and reduce the chance of more LVC’s.

 

[d3follower]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

I would think that the super-conference would be a huge problem for the northern-most ECAC East teams and for the western-most ECAC West teams because of the travel involved. I suspect that that proves one of the reason why USM is looking at the MASCAC. I just did some quick checking as to the mileage for some of these trips and its 450 miles between USM and Neumann and 470 miles between Elmira and USM. And the trips to Hobart and Elmira are long too (334 and 370 miles respectively). Knock 15-20 miles off and that will give you some idea of the distance between UNE and the various western schools. I'm going to guess that UNE will end up heading for the ECAC NE for travel-related reasons. The trips are not quite as long between NEC and the ECAC West schools but they are still kind of bad.

 

[hawk]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

By my count the league would have the following teams:
West:
Elmira
Hobart
Manhattanville
Neumann
Utica

East:
Babson
Castleton
NEC
Norwich
Skidmore
UNE

You would have a total of 11 league teams; teams could play each other twice for a total of 20 league games. Since there is an uneven number of teams in the east maybe one game could be cut out to limit travel for the west teams. It would be great to limit games to 17 or 18 to allow teams to play the USA Under 18 teams or maybe a Canadian college team like McGill.
Wonder what the west fans opinion on a combined ECAC league.

 

[Hammer]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

You would have a total of 11 league teams; teams could play each other twice for a total of 20 league games. Since there is an uneven number of teams in the east maybe one game could be cut out to limit travel for the west teams. It would be great to limit games to 17 or 18 to allow teams to play the USA Under 18 teams or maybe a Canadian college team like McGill.
Wonder what the west fans opinion on a combined ECAC league.

I'm fairly certain that you know this, but a Canadian college or the U-18 team can be scheduled along with 20 conference games. The 25 game limit does not include exhibitions such as those that you have suggested.

 

[d3follower]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

I'm fairly certain that you know this, but a Canadian college or the U-18 team can be scheduled along with 20 conference games. The 25 game limit does not include exhibitions such as those that you have suggested.

The 25-game limit does not apply to one additional game per year with the USNDP team or a foreign team (but the game with the foreign team must be in the US) but it would apply to most other exhibition games (except for one alumni game per year).

 

[Hammer]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

The 25-game limit does not apply to one additional game per year with the USNDP team or a foreign team (but the game with the foreign team must be in the US) but it would apply to most other exhibition games (except for one alumni game per year).

Right. I understood it as hawk wanting to see either a team such as McGill or the U-18 team come into his home arena for a game. They would be able to do so once a year.

When I had season tickets at Michigan (a little bit different scenario, I realize), for years they opened by sacrificing a Canadian team (folks, there were some really bad games in there), or in the middle of the season they would bring in the U-18 team.

 

[oldguard]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

By my count the league would have the following teams:
West:
Elmira
Hobart
Manhattanville
Neumann
Utica

East:
Babson
Castleton
NEC
Norwich
Skidmore
UNE

Assuming Charlie's original supposition is correct and Hawk's list of teams is close (IMHO, UNE would move on to ECACNE), here is my guess at travel partner pairings:

Babson and NEC
Castleton and Norwich
Skidmore and Utica
Elmira and Hobart
Manhattanville and Neumann

There certainly are some long trips involved but it would seem that the desire for a competitive league with an AQ would trump the travel concerns. This arrangement would create 19 in conference games and would allow for 6 OOC games, thereby allowing the continuation of many long time rivalry games for each team.

 

[Hammer]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Okay, I'm curious. How would you get to 19 games? 18 is easy, as you play everyone twice.