Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

[busterman62]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

However, for the time being you are wasting half of your voting power. So you are half-voting for Dump by not voting blue.

The issue now is Trump or Not Trump. That's your choice. A vote for Bernie when he isn't the nominee is a vote for Trump. It is that simple.

Elections are "simple math" (© ScoobyDoo). Get one more vote than all of your opponents and you win:

Let's say that Candidate B gets x votes, Candidate C gets y votes, Candidate D gets z votes and x>y>z.
Now if Candidate A gets x+1 votes, he/she wins. Simple math.

If my vote is z, how does that mathematically help Candidate A more than Candidate B?

I'll hang up and await the "simple math" explanation.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

Elections are "simple math" (© ScoobyDoo). Get one more vote than all of your opponents and you win:

Let's say that Candidate B gets x votes, Candidate C gets y votes, Candidate D gets z votes and x>y>z.
Now if Candidate A gets x+1 votes, he/she wins. Simple math.

If my vote is z, how does that mathematically help Candidate A more than Candidate B?

I'll hang up and await the "simple math" explanation.

I hope you're kidding.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

I hope you're kidding.

He isnt...and he doesnt get how funny (in a sad way) it is.

 

[busterman62]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

I hope you're kidding.

Not at all.

One can argue that voting third party is "wasting" or "throwing away" ones vote on a candidate that can't win. I tend to disagree with this but I completely understand the argument. However, to say that by voting third party it helps an R > D (or D>R if you prefer) is illogical. It impacts R and D equally. Show me the math that says I'm wrong and I'll shut up and eat crow.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

Not at all.

One can argue that voting third party is "wasting" or "throwing away" ones vote on a candidate that can't win. I tend to disagree with this but I completely understand the argument. However, to say that by voting third party it helps an R > D (or D>R if you prefer) is illogical. It impacts R and D equally. Show me the math that says I'm wrong and I'll shut up and eat crow.

You are being intentionally obtuse.

The voter hates Dump. Only one challenger can beat Dump. The voter has three options:

Cast a net +1 vote for Dump
Cast a net -1 vote for Dump
Cast a neutral vote

Casting a neutral vote (either voting third party of abstaining) is half as beneficial to Dump as actually voting for him would be, relative to voting against him.

I'm certain you are trolling so you'll get nothing more from me. I appeal to the Reasonable Man Principle as embodied in the others on this thread.

 

[busterman62]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

A couple of things before getting to your post:
First & Foremost: Unless something drastically changes, I WILL be voting Biden this fall. (If by some unexpected shift in the current trend and Bernie becomes the nominee, I will be in the position that solo finds himself now i.e. both candidates are unacceptable. This will cause a major reassessment of my vote but in no way will it be for the current squatter in the WH). I state this in hopes of avoiding the erroneous assumption that failing to comply with blue no matter who is equivalent to Dump support.

Ever since Trump won in 2016 there has been the theory that third party voting assisted him in winning. Recently, this theory has seemingly become dogma on this board. I find this theory to be illogical at it's core. If trying to point out the fallacy of said "logic" is trolling or being obtuse then I am guilty as charged.

You are being intentionally obtuse.

The voter hates Dump. Only one challenger can beat Dump. The voter has three options:

Cast a net +1 vote for Dump
Cast a net -1 vote for Dump
Cast a neutral vote

Casting a neutral vote (either voting third party of abstaining) is half as beneficial to Dump as actually voting for him would be, relative to voting against him.

I'm certain you are trolling so you'll get nothing more from me. I appeal to the Reasonable Man Principle as embodied in the others on this thread.

In any election, a vote that is cast is an additive process and not a subtraction one. As such, your net sum argument is, IMO, questionable at best. But let's assume it's 100% correct.

In a binary election of Dump vs. Biden, we can agree that a vote for one candidate is an advantage over the other candidate. Utilizing the additive process shows that Biden [receiving vote is] +1 > Dump [not receiving vote is] +0 while Dump [receiving vote is] +1 > Biden [not receiving vote is] +0. Advantage recipient. Utilizing your "net sum" theory reveals the same. Biden [receiving vote is] +1 > Dump [not receiving vote is] -1 or Dump [receiving vote is] +1 > Biden[not receiving vote is] -1). Advantage recipient. However, choosing not to vote impacts both candidates equally based on additive process (Biden +0 = Dump +0) or "net sum" (Biden [receiving vote is] +0 and [not receiving vote is] -1 = Dump [receiving vote is] +0 and [not receiving vote is] -1). Advantage, no one.

Since our current presidential elections are rarely binary, third party (Candidate Bozo) voting becomes an option. Utilizing the additive process the outcome is crystal clear. Biden +0 = Dump +0 < Bozo +1. Utilizing your "net sum" theory: Biden [receiving vote is] +0 and [not receiving vote is] -1 = Dump [receiving vote is] +0 and [not receiving vote is] -1 < Bozo +1. Bozo has the advantage while Dump & Biden are equally harmed. QED

Again, one can argue that voting third party is "wasting" or "throwing away" ones vote on a candidate that can't win. I still respectfully disagree (as does Joe Liberman, Jesse Ventura & Bernie Sanders) but it is a legitimate argument. A third party vote (or no vote) providing one of the major party candidates an advantage is not.

TMWDNR: if

Casting a neutral vote (either voting third party of abstaining) is half as beneficial to Dump as actually voting for him would be, relative to voting against him.

is true, then

Casting a neutral vote (either voting third party of abstaining) is half as beneficial to Biden as actually voting for him would be, relative to voting against him.

Is equally true

 

[unofan]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

TMWDNR: if

is true, then

Is equally true

Not if you would've voted for Biden in the binary scenario.

Put another way, if Trump gets X+1 and Biden gets X, and you wrote in Bernie Sanders instead of voting for Biden, you effectively gave Trump the one vote advantage he needed.

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

Someone get Monte Hall on the line stat!

 

[Kepler]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

Not if you would've voted for Biden in the binary scenario.

Put another way, if Trump gets X+1 and Biden gets X, and you wrote in Bernie Sanders instead of voting for Biden, you effectively gave Trump the one vote advantage he needed.

He is not debating in good faith. Abort! Abort!

<img src="https://1.bp.blogspot.com/_jyaFg9IwHtQ/THokB1GVcmI/AAAAAAAAHAs/UgtSr-THqmQ/s1600/time_to_troll_color.bmp" >

 

[Handyman]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">New: A divided inner circle. A fateful misread of S.C. and Super Tuesday. A candidate who would not broaden his message or reach out beyond his powerful faction.<br><br>Bernie Sanders had the nomination within his grasp – <a href="https://twitter.com/jmartNYT?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@jmartNYT</a> & me on how it slipped away <a href="https://t.co/Jk9Tk2OhvB">https://t.co/Jk9Tk2OhvB</a></p>— Alex Burns (@alexburnsNYT) <a href="https://twitter.com/alexburnsNYT/status/1241368228313681920?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 21, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[St. Clown]

He is not debating in good faith. Abort! Abort!

I disagree that he’s trolling. He just disagrees with the prior-to consensus of discussion within the thread for people not named solovsfett. The doctor has rarely held with the majority of people posting here, usually much more moderate than people like you.

 

[walrus]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

usually much more moderate than people like you.

Who isn't? Probably more tolerant also

 

[busterman62]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

Not if you would've voted for Biden in the binary scenario.

Put another way, if Trump gets X+1 and Biden gets X, and you wrote in Bernie Sanders instead of voting for Biden, you effectively gave Trump the one vote advantage he needed.

Trump already had the one vote advantage. My cast vote did not change that because the benefit of said vote went only to the third party. It did not belong to any party candidate until it was cast so I have not taken away said vote from anyone. Since voting is nothing but an additive process, the math remains the same. The third party vote provides benefit only to the third party (+1) and as such, it equally impacts all other candidates by adding zero votes to their tally. I could bore you with more equations if you'd like but I fear that is little more than wasting both our time.

However.....Your (unofan) post has given me the possible insight as to my disconnect with your (et. al.) logic. It appears that you as party members seem to assume that the vote to be cast by a potential third party voter is already designated for your party candidate due to their appropriate hatred of Dump. As you can already see, I disagree with that premise but it would explain a lot. Maybe I'm way off base here but it sure seems that this is the assumption made by those who state any third party vote benefits only Dump. If I am off base then I apologize but would appreciate someone attempting to explain the math/logic to me.

Kepler has been fond of saying that the choice of D vs Trump is similar to choosing between a cold and Cancer. You probably don't want either but one is a whole lot better than the other. Assuming Biden gets the nomination, I currently agree with that theory. Solo does not. He currently views Biden vs. Dump as Pancreatic CA vs. Lung CA.( We're going to die regardless of cell type.) Having been in similar situations, I have voted third party and will do so again if placed that position (i.e. Sanders winning the D nom.). You (et. al.) are free to argue that my assessment of the candidates is wrong and that your candidate is really the common cold rather than a CA. However, to say that my vote for a third party candidate benefits one major party candidate over another is mathematically incorrect and therefore logically incorrect. (Again I can spew out more equations if you'd like but I'm sure you really don't want that).

Someone get Monte Hall on the line stat!

I'm not quite sure why you bring up Monte's probability problem in an additive voting scenario. Is it because in both scenarios most of the choices involve goats?

I disagree that he’s trolling. He just disagrees with the prior-to consensus of discussion within the thread for people not named solovsfett. The doctor has rarely held with the majority of people posting here, usually much more moderate than people like you.

Thanks for recognizing it. I had the very same discussion with Mrs.62 (Hardcore D) and got a similar response. Dump seemingly has the ability to allow emotion to trump logic in many people.(Bad pun intended)

 

[mookie1995]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

why isn't joeb telling the senators in his party to settle down and pass the bill already. so what if buy backs are limited for 2 yrs, isn't the plan to win everything in 7 months? then you can go in and ban them for good.

so shortsighted, as always.

they are so smart
S M R T

 

[Rover]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

why isn't joeb telling the senators in his party to settle down and pass the bill already. so what if buy backs are limited for 2 yrs, isn't the plan to win everything in 7 months? then you can go in and ban them for good.

so shortsighted, as always.

they are so smart
S M R T

Wait, wouldn't you need the Goopers to go along with that? As in you'd have to get by the filibuster. mookie has an awful lot of trust in Itch McConnell to do the right thing!

 

[unofan]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

However, to say that my vote for a third party candidate benefits one major party candidate over another is mathematically incorrect

No it's not.

Let's assume a small town mayoral race with 4 voters. 2 people vote for X. 1 person votes for Y. You are the last vote. Your candidate rankings are Z>Y>X.

If you vote for Z, X wins.

If you vote for Y, you force a tie.

By voting Z even though he cannot win, you give X the win even though he is your least favorite candidate.

This is game theory 101. The moderate wing of the Democratic Party learned its lesson from the GOP in 2016 and consolidated before it was too late.

If you're too principled to see that, then we can't change your mind, but you're still wrong.

 

[rufus]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

why isn't joeb telling the senators in his party to settle down and pass the bill already. so what if buy backs are limited for 2 yrs, isn't the plan to win everything in 7 months? then you can go in and ban them for good.

so shortsighted, as always.

they are so smart
S M R T

Cause it was a bad bill. .

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

The bill essentially gives large corporations who spent all their tax cut to do stock rebuys a 1/2 trillion dollar slush fund for bailout with no oversight. I don't blame Democrats for saying no.

 

[unofan]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

Wait, wouldn't you need the Goopers to go along with that? As in you'd have to get by the filibuster. mookie has an awful lot of trust in Itch McConnell to do the right thing!

I would think, in light of what McConnell has done these last 12 years, that the filibuster goes the way of the dodo if the Dems regain control.

 

[mookie1995]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

Wait, wouldn't you need the Goopers to go along with that? As in you'd have to get by the filibuster. mookie has an awful lot of trust in Itch McConnell to do the right thing!

dems pull nucluar option stop being nice

get er done!!