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Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

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Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

Kepler said:
The lower middle class (which is really all that's left of the American middle class after 40 years of Reaganomics) has an aversion to words like "socialism" and "public option" from long training to self-harm,
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Sanders also has an aversion to words like "public option". Supporting a public option but not M4A makes you a conservadem worthy to be called an idiot by Trix.

public option is mainstream and has broad support outside the 35% of the electorate that makes up the GOP base.
 
Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

Public option leads eventually to single payer anyway. It's a distinction whose only difference is timeframe.
 
Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

BassAle said:
Sanders also has an aversion to words like "public option". Supporting a public option but not M4A makes you a conservadem worthy to be called an idiot by Trix.

public option is mainstream and has broad support outside the 35% of the electorate that makes up the GOP base.
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He didn't or hasn't figured out he needed to broaden his appeal if he wanted to win. He never cultivated enough new voters or a big enough movement to get over the hump. Biden's got Harris and Booker now on his side. He's assembled just about everybody.
 
Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

Kepler said:
This is the very heart of it. The Plan was to abjure the Center and find a windfall on the Left.

It didn't work, and I sincerely doubt that if Sanders with his peculiar personality and undoubted sincerity could not do it then anybody else can.

My plan of action of the last 20 years is a ruin. "Everybody has a plan until they get hit in the mouth."

So, right now we can do the normal Democratic thing and run to the Center. God knows the GOP won't be meeting us there to contest it -- they're goosestepping off in Mussolini Fairyland. So, stanch the bleeding and back to the drawing board.
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I wouldn't toss your thesis into the fireplace just yet. I think we're just so ****ing scared and want Trump out that we're willing to give up a lot to ensure he's voted out.

One more Great Recession caused by the Republicans and we might learn. Couple that with a pandemic that kills a couple hundred thousand in the US and maybe this is another post-New Deal run for Democrats. Who knows.
 
Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

dxmnkd316 said:
I wouldn't toss your thesis into the fireplace just yet. I think we're just so ****ing scared and want Trump out that we're willing to give up a lot to ensure he's voted out.

One more Great Recession caused by the Republicans and we might learn. Couple that with a pandemic that kills a couple hundred thousand in the US and maybe this is another post-New Deal run for Democrats. Who knows.
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So....you're looking on the bright side? :eek: :confused: :eek:
 
Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

Kepler said:
This is the very heart of it. The Plan was to abjure the Center and find a windfall on the Left.

It didn't work, and I sincerely doubt that if Sanders with his peculiar personality and undoubted sincerity could not do it then anybody else can.

My plan of action of the last 20 years is a ruin. "Everybody has a plan until they get hit in the mouth."

So, right now we can do the normal Democratic thing and run to the Center. God knows the GOP won't be meeting us there to contest it -- they're goosestepping off in Mussolini Fairyland. So, stanch the bleeding and back to the drawing board.
Click to expand...

Ok lets not pretend Biden is "The Center". He isnt a Progressive but he isnt exactly Bill Clinton either. He is on par with Obama which is Center-Left only I dont think he will buckle like Obama did.

Joe represents the type of politician older people remember that no longer really exists since the GOP decided it no longer wants to play the game. That is part of why people older than 40 love him, he is the old standard. He isnt the "Last Gasp of the Center Wall Street Dem" he is "The Last Gasp of the Statesman Politician". Dont get me wrong he will hurl some barbs at Donald, but in reality he will probably do nothing too remarkable in office and I think, right now, 60-70% of the country just want that. They want 48 hours where something stupid doesnt take place. They also want a guy who will tell us "The World isnt going to hell, America is great still and everything is going to be fine". They want to hear he wont shut out the other side (even though he will) and will at least make a small attempt to go back to the old ways. (which wont happen)

To me that is the second fatal flaw of the Sanders Campaign. Timing. Now for me I felt it was perfect timing because things are so bad why not react exactly the same the opposite way and force a change back to sensibility. The majority disagreed. They wanted normalcy not revolution. Biden is the old coach on his last run who signs to coach for 4 years and groom his successor. He is the stop gap measure. When he is gone (no matter who he picks as Veep) the next candidate will be younger and closer to Bernie than Biden. And they wont have to run an insurgent campaign, they will already be in good with the Party and have friends willing to help them.

Honestly though, with the Dow crashing and burning because we have The Village Idiot in charge of a pandemic I would choose a ham sandwich and be happy. Trump's handling of this makes Dubya's freezing when he heard about the WTC look like FDR after Pearl Harbor.
 
Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

Handyman said:
Ok lets not pretend Biden is "The Center". He isnt a Progressive but he isnt exactly Bill Clinton either. He is on par with Obama which is Center-Left only I dont think he will buckle like Obama did.

Joe represents the type of politician older people remember that no longer really exists since the GOP decided it no longer wants to play the game. That is part of why people older than 40 love him, he is the old standard. He isnt the "Last Gasp of the Center Wall Street Dem" he is "The Last Gasp of the Statesman Politician". Dont get me wrong he will hurl some barbs at Donald, but in reality he will probably do nothing too remarkable in office and I think, right now, 60-70% of the country just want that. They want 48 hours where something stupid doesnt take place. They also want a guy who will tell us "The World isnt going to hell, America is great still and everything is going to be fine". They want to hear he wont shut out the other side (even though he will) and will at least make a small attempt to go back to the old ways. (which wont happen)

To me that is the second fatal flaw of the Sanders Campaign. Timing. Now for me I felt it was perfect timing because things are so bad why not react exactly the same the opposite way and force a change back to sensibility. The majority disagreed. They wanted normalcy not revolution. Biden is the old coach on his last run who signs to coach for 4 years and groom his successor. He is the stop gap measure. When he is gone (no matter who he picks as Veep) the next candidate will be younger and closer to Bernie than Biden. And they wont have to run an insurgent campaign, they will already be in good with the Party and have friends willing to help them.

Honestly though, with the Dow crashing and burning because we have The Village Idiot in charge of a pandemic I would choose a ham sandwich and be happy. Trump's handling of this makes Dubya's freezing when he heard about the WTC look like FDR after Pearl Harbor.
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Yeah, he won't triangulate like Clinton did, sure. But don't forget that Obama had a huge small c conservative streak. He always wanted to work with the other side. I believe that it is impossible to do that anymore. And what I mean by that is you can't do what Obama did. You can't start with the compromise. Your negotiation must start from your extreme. That way when the compromise happens you're not just ending up with another small c conservative idea like Obama did.
 
Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

Kepler said:
Public option leads eventually to single payer anyway. It's a distinction whose only difference is timeframe.
Click to expand...

Right but that timeframe is what a lot of people need to get there. The Public Option is not a perfect plan but if it is in place after 5 years the next step doesnt seem so bad. People hated ObamaCare too and yet the threat of it going away caused a Blue Wave in 2018. People hate it until they get it it then they cant live without it.

If it take 12 years to get to M4A that is better than none. The Public Option should be on the table. That is what the trix's of the world dont seem to grasp.
 
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Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

ScoobyDoo said:
Yeah, he won't triangulate like Clinton did, sure. But don't forget that Obama had a huge small c conservative streak. He always wanted to work with the other side. I believe that it is impossible to do that anymore. And what I mean by that is you can't do what Obama did. You can't start with the compromise. Your negotiation must start from your extreme. That way when the compromise happens you're not just ending up with another small c conservative idea like Obama did.
Click to expand...

I dont think Biden will start with the compromise, cause unlike Obama he doesnt think he has too. Obama feared playing hardball until it was too late. Biden has been playing the game for decades he will have no issue saying "yeah no thanks". He will also get The Public Option passed in the House which Obama could not do.

People want to know negotiation is a tool in the bag still. That is why the guy who will negotiate won and the "My Way or the Highway" guy lost on Super Tuesday.
 
Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

Kepler said:
The lower middle class (which is really all that's left of the American middle class after 40 years of Reaganomics) has an aversion to words like "socialism" and "public option" from long training to self-harm, but stripped of those terms, when polled about the actual results of Sanders' policies -- more security in exchange for fairer taxes -- they have the same values. Even through the relentless propaganda, people at risk can understand we are a community and not a bunch of atoms all agitated to undercut each other the way the Plutes want.
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Polling showed that people living in red and purple-ish/red states liked Obamacare when it was referred to as the "Affordable Care Act" but when asked if they supported Obamacare they were much less likely to say yes. As my former union members in Ohio (who almost all worked in public libraries) used to say: Words matter. Sanders takes great pride in that notion of "democratic socialism" but calling it that is a turn off to 2/3rds of the country, the 1/3 that is evil and lost, and half of the rest of us who mostly just want to raise our families in peace and a little prosperity. I know what he means by it, but I have at least a working knowledge of the difference between communism and socialism. 85% (if I'm being nice) of America does not.
 
Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

WeAreNDHockey said:
Polling showed that people living in red and purple-ish/red states liked Obamacare when it was referred to as the "Affordable Care Act" but when asked if they supported Obamacare they were much less likely to say yes. As my former union members in Ohio (who almost all worked in public libraries) used to say: Words matter. Sanders takes great pride in that notion of "democratic socialism" but calling it that is a turn off to 2/3rds of the country, the 1/3 that is evil and lost, and half of the rest of us who mostly just want to raise our families in peace and a little prosperity. I know what he means by it, but I have at least a working knowledge of the difference between communism and socialism. 85% (if I'm being nice) of America does not.
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All very true.
 
Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

Kepler said:
All very true.
Click to expand...

Sad isnt it.

Whoever runs next as the Far Left candidate should consult a thesaurus and a branding specialist and spin it better.
 
Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

Best way to stop Biden from straying is to keep House and Senate majorities. Dems sat out the 2010 elections and after that point Obama was forced to negotiate with terrorists because they held one lever of power. Can't do that again, even if Biden doesn't go all socialist in his first two years in office.

Higher tax rates on the rich = win. Financial transaction tax = win. Public option = win. Let's keep turning out if we want to see bigger changes.
 
Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

Handyman said:
Sad isnt it.

Whoever runs next as the Far Left candidate should consult a thesaurus and a branding specialist and spin it better.
Click to expand...

would also help if they hire better surrogates. ;)
 
Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

FadeToBlack&Gold said:
57, and he clearly meant it as a joke, but Republicans fussed about it. I remember Old Pio used to bring it up as a running bit in his rants.
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He was pointing that that aside from the state he was then visiting and Alaska and Hawaii, he had been to the other 47 states. But he started out by saying 50 states (because one naturally thinks 50 states) and then switching to saying 7 in the middle of it; there's even a little pause. So he just combined two words accidentally. That's it; that's all the other side had after 8 years.
 
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