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DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

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Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

Jimjamesak said:
JFC Kep get your head out of the Philosophy 200 books and come back to the real world. Yes there is pain being inflicted on the survivors, the other members of the band, his friends, his family especially, but to basically **** on his grave and have this scornful attitude? That's low. You've no clue how hard it can be to deal with mental illness.
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I've explained my opinion. It's not "low" and taking that attitude towards it is lazy. I could for example, return your cheap shot and say you are being callous towards his kids. But I know you're not -- you are privileging his pain over theirs, just as I am privileging their pain over his.

I can't really explain why I choose the way I do, but I do. It's not a utilitarian calculation of 6 > 1. I would feel the same way about a pair of parents who committed suicide and left 1 child. It does have to do with innocence and responsibility. There is always a degree of responsibility in everyone for their actions; even if the waves of mental illness were roaring in the background this man was not paralyzed -- he led a life, which means he was capable of some degree of reflection and control. That means this was to some degree a conscious, intentional act. And to that degree I blame him for the suffering he has caused.

This is an emotional issue which is why people have responded so emotionally to my opinion, plus as always "I'm obnoxious and disliked did you know that?" But stripping away the snark I stand by the argument as the true real world argument. I am taking everyone's pain into consideration and not living in an ivory tower where only his counts.

I believe the Suicidal Artiste Culture gives these people an image that people -- even they themselves -- fall for. I believe the SAC is a silly 19th century concoction by jaded merchants to sell to bored Victorian housewives, and because melodrama sells so well it also polluted movies and now music culture. To commit suicide, particularly if you're a writer, an artist, or a musician, is the ultimate authenticity. "I told you I was ill."

What I'm saying is f-ck all that. If you have kids and you kill yourself you cease to be pitiable and you become detestable.

Now, as for whether I have "a clue" how hard it can be to deal with mental illness, don't go there, kitten. Don't assume anything about a person like that. There is indeed cluelessness here, and it's your understanding of what another person has experienced.
 
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Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

Handyman said:
No disrespect to your father...but that is a terrible thing to say and believe. You and your father have zero understanding of how the mind works or what causes suicide. He didnt just up and shoot himself one day, people dont kill themselves on a whim. Something was wrong in his brain...

And this is where someone will say "then go seek help". It doesnt always work. Not to mention the stigma you get when people find out you are medicated or in therapy. Then there is the problem of getting the right help, sometimes the cure is worse than the disease.

The attitude you and Kepler have reminds me of the people who chastise alcoholics because they choose to be drunks.
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I hear where you are coming from Handy, but I'm going to still agree with Kep and my dad. Hardly a week or a month goes by where we don't hear about a murder/suicide involving some guy and his wife/girlfriend, and maybe some kids. Usually the public response from everyone about the guy who commits suicide is just a cold sort of "good riddance" response, not concern about his or her mental well-being. No different here or with my baseball coach.
 
Kepler said:
I've explained my opinion. It's not "low" and taking that attitude towards it is lazy. I could for example, return your cheap shot and say you are being callous towards his kids. But I know you're not -- you are privileging his pain over theirs, just as I am privileging their pain over his.

I can't really explain why I choose the way I do, but I do. It's not a utilitarian calculation of 6 > 1. I would feel the same way about a pair of parents who committed suicide and left 1 child. It does have to do with innocence and responsibility. There is always a degree of responsibility in everyone for their actions; even if the waves of mental illness were roaring in the background this man was not paralyzed -- he led a life, which means he was capable of some degree of reflection and control. That means this was to some degree a conscious, intentional act. And to that degree I blame him for the suffering he has caused.

This is an emotional issue which is why people have responded so emotionally to my opinion, plus as always "I'm obnoxious and disliked did you know that?" But stripping away the snark I stand by the argument as the true real world argument. I am taking everyone's pain into consideration and not living in an ivory tower where only his counts.

I believe the Suicidal Artiste Culture gives these people an image that people -- even they themselves -- fall for. I believe the SAC is a silly 19th century concoction by jaded merchants to sell to bored Victorian housewives, and because melodrama sells so well it also polluted movies and now music culture. To commit suicide, particularly if you're a writer, an artist, or a musician, is the ultimate authenticity. "I told you I was ill."

What I'm saying is f-ck all that. If you have kids and you kill yourself you cease to be pitiable and you become detestable.

Now, as for whether I have "a clue" how hard it can be to deal with mental illness, don't go there, kitten. Don't assume anything about a person like that. There is indeed cluelessness here, and it's your understanding of what another person has experienced.
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Kep, I'm upset because you have a very flippant attitude and are seemingly very ignorant about this. I can concede I don't know everything about you but I have to deal with the information given.

I don't feel sad for just him, I feel sad for everyone involved including him. Yeah it's an awful thing the family is dealing with, but it doesn't make Chester a bad person. It's an unimaginable pain to be abused as a kid, I see it every day with my wife. I'd give anything to have her be able to sleep just one night without a nightmare. These people have been injured, it's just an injury you can't see. Yeah he led a life but living isn't the same as being in control. You can suppress things and still go about a daily life, it doesn't mean you're in control, it just means you've suppressed it enough to get through. It's still there, it still eats at you, it still hurts you, it still controls you. I went through a terrible depression cycle for a over year yet I was still able to go to work and play games and post on here yet, I didn't have any control to my life. I was just going through my routine. It's hard to describe, you're living but you don't really have any part of it.

The worst thing is your attitude heavily contributes to the stigma of mental illness. It really gives a feeling that we're all just weak people who only care about ourselves. You may not mean that, but that's my takeaway from it, and it's frustrating.
 
Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

Washington, DC NBC news anchor Jim Vance, 75.
 
Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

joecct said:
Washington, DC NBC news anchor Jim Vance, 75.
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As someone who grew up in the DC area, another reminder that my childhood is over. (I'm 34 for the record.)
 
Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

John Heard, 76. Kevin McAllister's dad in Home Alone. I still wonder what he did to afford that house and a vacation to Paris for 9 people..
 
Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

mookie1995 said:
Didn't they stay with his brother?
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Yes. Still, nine airplane tickets from Chicago to Paris ain't cheap.
 
Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

St. Clown said:
Yes. Still, nine airplane tickets from Chicago to Paris ain't cheap.
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Remember, they put the kids in Y and themselves in F. Even in 1990 USD, I would say that easily works out to $20-25k.
 
Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

Barbara Sinatra, 90.

Without looking, I think she's the last spouse of a Marx brother, too.
 
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Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

Hammer said:
Barbara Sinatra, 90.

Without looking, I think she's the last spouse of a Marx brother, too.
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Technically, an ex-Marx brother. Zeppo had left the act prior to the marriage. He had in fact become a millionaire from his engineering, and it appears Barbara was primarily attracted to money.
 
Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

Jimjamesak said:
Kep, I'm upset because you have a very flippant attitude and are seemingly very ignorant about this. I can concede I don't know everything about you but I have to deal with the information given.

I don't feel sad for just him, I feel sad for everyone involved including him. Yeah it's an awful thing the family is dealing with, but it doesn't make Chester a bad person. It's an unimaginable pain to be abused as a kid, I see it every day with my wife. I'd give anything to have her be able to sleep just one night without a nightmare. These people have been injured, it's just an injury you can't see. Yeah he led a life but living isn't the same as being in control. You can suppress things and still go about a daily life, it doesn't mean you're in control, it just means you've suppressed it enough to get through. It's still there, it still eats at you, it still hurts you, it still controls you. I went through a terrible depression cycle for a over year yet I was still able to go to work and play games and post on here yet, I didn't have any control to my life. I was just going through my routine. It's hard to describe, you're living but you don't really have any part of it.

The worst thing is your attitude heavily contributes to the stigma of mental illness. It really gives a feeling that we're all just weak people who only care about ourselves. You may not mean that, but that's my takeaway from it, and it's frustrating.
Click to expand...

This says some of what I was thinking. (coming in late, have been traveling) Not sure why we can't feel for both the person who is suicidal and those left behind. Dealt with numerous suicidal folks over the yrs and they are not all the same. You can't put them all in a box and paint them with the same brush. I have seen people who were angry with the world and suicidal- their attempts were a way to lash out at those around them. I have seen people in so much emotional pain they could not bear the thought of any more. They couldn't see an end to the tunnel, felt a sense of hopelessness at the chronicity with no relief and their pain consumed them- a very different sort of attempt. If those people were in intractable pain from something physically definable would we be passing the same judgement? Sort of like asking someone to put their hand in a fire and hold it there simply because they should suck it up for others. Instinct makes you pull your hand away. I truly believe for some people this is the same sort of response- escape from pain.

There is a huge difference between being anxious and depressed and being bad enough to feel suicide is the only option. There are so many variables- have they been successfully medicated before when they have felt this way? Do they have supports? Do they feel a burden on those around them and feel the people would be better off without them? If you haven't actually been deeply depressed and suicidal the logic of suicide seems warped (it is) You can be logical all you want and say how others suffer with the attempt or success. That is true. They do suffer but many people who are suicidal can't think of that clearly or really believe they are doing the right thing. This may not be logical to us but I have had patients who truly believe that the presence of them always depressed, anxious etc is stunting the people around them and holding them back from what they could do.

Being angry at the situation when someone is successful is a gut reaction. I think it is easier to be angry at the person who successfully suicided than to acknowledge that it plain sucks for everyone. I am angry there is no foolproof treatment. I have had pts who have suffered for yrs- tried everything, been hospitalized multiple times and have described horrible mental anguish. At times their families have expressed the wish they would be successful because it is so painful to watch them hurt without relief. No way to know what this guy tried, went thru, what his family thinks. They are the ones that can pass judgement. We can only guess

(long post. sorry- feeling philosophical)
 
Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

Well, I don't mean to pis-s people off by being flippant. I'm actually very serious about my position, but I could present it without the venom, so for that I am sorry.

I do understand the issue and have personal experience with it. I respect that we have different opinions, but just as I don't indict you for yours please do the same. I have explained (inartfully) why I refuse to mourn a suicide as anything but a selfish jerk, and see the act not as a tragedy but as a sh-tty thing to do to the survivors.
 
Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">R.I.P. June Foray, the voice of Rocky The Flying Squirrel & Natasha on <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Bullwinkle?src=hash">#Bullwinkle</a> and Granny on <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Tweety?src=hash">#Tweety</a> cartoons. <a href="https://t.co/H0ONpUVAjV">pic.twitter.com/H0ONpUVAjV</a></p>— Ken Schott (@slapschotts) <a href="https://twitter.com/slapschotts/status/890448709217124353">July 27, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

Foray was great. Listening to XM Radio Classics she's in the cast of seemingly half the radio shows ever aired. When she was young she also looked amazingly like my aunt (who is still alive at 93).
 
Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

Kepler said:
Suicide is the ultimate narcissism [sometimes]....

Suicide is not a tragedy to be romanticized. It's just the drag act of a selfish fool who doesn't care about anyone else because they're so sniff unhappy. F-ck them.
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Probably way too late to the party to chime in; I know personally of at least two suicides that were the result of organic brain damage. You speak as if the person's mind were working properly and they made a rational decision; and that is not always the case. "unhappy" doesn't begin to describe a situation in which neurons are misfiring.
 
Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

FreshFish said:
Probably way too late to the party to chime in; I know personally of at least two suicides that were the result of organic brain damage. You speak as if the person's mind were working properly and they made a rational decision; and that is not always the case. "unhappy" doesn't begin to describe a situation in which neurons are misfiring.
Click to expand...

Severe brain injury / brain chemistry related suicides are a different story. That's not having a choice at all.
 
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