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Covfefe-19 The 10th Part: Might As Well Reject No Shirt, No Shoes While You're At It
- Thread starter MissThundercat
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Re: Covfefe-19 The 10th Part: Might As Well Reject No Shirt, No Shoes While You're At
Are there documented instances in history where the herd immunity philosophy has worked? If so, I can't really fault this guy/Sweden since the info on COVID seems to change all the time. For as smart as all these doctors are, even they don't have all the answers.
Are there documented instances in history where the herd immunity philosophy has worked? If so, I can't really fault this guy/Sweden since the info on COVID seems to change all the time. For as smart as all these doctors are, even they don't have all the answers.
D
Deutsche Gopher Fan
Guest
Polio requires 80-85% of herd to be vaccinated, measles around 90. It worked quite well until people decided it gave their kids autism
FadeToBlack&Gold
Microlot Marxist
Re: Covfefe-19 The 10th Part: Might As Well Reject No Shirt, No Shoes While You're At
Tends to go hand-in-hand with the notion, "Both sides are bad, so vote Republican." (BSABSVR)
Tends to go hand-in-hand with the notion, "Both sides are bad, so vote Republican." (BSABSVR)
leswp1
Well-known member
Re: Covfefe-19 The 10th Part: Might As Well Reject No Shirt, No Shoes While You're At
I have this conversation all the time with people- When someone is unwilling to be unprofessional/ do the right thing you have 2 choices. You can assume they will do the wrong thing and, without them ever having to say anything, react in a way to counter it -- OR-- you can make it very uncomfortable by continuing the conversation as if you expect them to do the right thing and when they don't call them out. Don't do the work for him. Make him or his mouthpieces say it. Point out the errors. Plant the seed.
One of our failures as a nation is we have the attention span of a gnat, are under-educated and are way too willing to take the first course- cede the expectation the right things should be done and then try to put out the dump-ster fire that results. NO. Call out the misinformation, call out those who are willing to perpetuate it. Stop the assumption of defeat. You may be defeated every time- the guy is really brilliant with media manipulation, deflection (church-Bible- photo op which totally diffused the ability to concentrate only on his words which were reprehensible). But if you keep steady in the message and the expectation you may, just may, reach a few people.
Yes we are stuck with tRump. He is one man. He is a sociopath, brilliant at media manipulation and it shows. The question is- Do we rollover and accept his unwillingness to lead and his absolute ineptitude to do so or do we call it out, keep pointing out facts, keep the eyes on the prize and not be distracted by all the stupid stunts he pulls?
I have this conversation all the time with people- When someone is unwilling to be unprofessional/ do the right thing you have 2 choices. You can assume they will do the wrong thing and, without them ever having to say anything, react in a way to counter it -- OR-- you can make it very uncomfortable by continuing the conversation as if you expect them to do the right thing and when they don't call them out. Don't do the work for him. Make him or his mouthpieces say it. Point out the errors. Plant the seed.
One of our failures as a nation is we have the attention span of a gnat, are under-educated and are way too willing to take the first course- cede the expectation the right things should be done and then try to put out the dump-ster fire that results. NO. Call out the misinformation, call out those who are willing to perpetuate it. Stop the assumption of defeat. You may be defeated every time- the guy is really brilliant with media manipulation, deflection (church-Bible- photo op which totally diffused the ability to concentrate only on his words which were reprehensible). But if you keep steady in the message and the expectation you may, just may, reach a few people.
net presence
Active member
Re: Covfefe-19 The 10th Part: Might As Well Reject No Shirt, No Shoes While You're At
JD, although I agree that even our best minds have been off in certain areas of prediction or analysis of Covid, in this case the problem is there isn't any science that confirms any kind of immunity if you've already had it. Remember the 8 sailors from the Roosevelt that tested positive a second time? The challenge is there is still much we don't know about this virus. Also, as it relates to Sweden's decision to attempt the "herd immunity" route, there wasn't a single other expert that agreed with that approach.
JD, although I agree that even our best minds have been off in certain areas of prediction or analysis of Covid, in this case the problem is there isn't any science that confirms any kind of immunity if you've already had it. Remember the 8 sailors from the Roosevelt that tested positive a second time? The challenge is there is still much we don't know about this virus. Also, as it relates to Sweden's decision to attempt the "herd immunity" route, there wasn't a single other expert that agreed with that approach.
Re: Covfefe-19 The 10th Part: Might As Well Reject No Shirt, No Shoes While You're At
I was specifically referring to the potential for a billionaire tax while Trump is in office. I have no problem going at Trump and calling him out. He's a moron (yet I will still be thought of as a Trump supporter on here).
I was specifically referring to the potential for a billionaire tax while Trump is in office. I have no problem going at Trump and calling him out. He's a moron (yet I will still be thought of as a Trump supporter on here).
Re: Covfefe-19 The 10th Part: Might As Well Reject No Shirt, No Shoes While You're At
Not defending herd immunity approach nor saying we should have tried it here. I couldn't even tell you when a herd immunity approach has worked throughout history. Although I am assuming it has or it wouldn't be a "thing" to try at all.
Not defending herd immunity approach nor saying we should have tried it here. I couldn't even tell you when a herd immunity approach has worked throughout history. Although I am assuming it has or it wouldn't be a "thing" to try at all.
rufus
rock and roller
Re: Covfefe-19 The 10th Part: Might As Well Reject No Shirt, No Shoes While You're At
But there are ways. Just as in flu season, people get their flu shots.
You just don't want to do them because, "oh, they'll hurt the economy. How will people get by without work? How will businesses survive?"
There are ways to make sure businesses and people are ok. We just lack the will to do them. So much easier to just throw up your hands and say, "welp, people are gonna die. Cost of doing business. Can't do nuthin' 'bout it."
But there are ways. Just as in flu season, people get their flu shots.
You just don't want to do them because, "oh, they'll hurt the economy. How will people get by without work? How will businesses survive?"
There are ways to make sure businesses and people are ok. We just lack the will to do them. So much easier to just throw up your hands and say, "welp, people are gonna die. Cost of doing business. Can't do nuthin' 'bout it."
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WisconsinWildcard
The plural of anecdote is not data
Re: Covfefe-19 The 10th Part: Might As Well Reject No Shirt, No Shoes While You're At
I am not sure it has been tried by choice when better options are available. The mistake Sweden (which I pointed out at the time and many others on here as well) is that do not have enough information to determine how to reach herd immunity. Basically when they did it, it was A+B+C=herd immunity but we didn't know A, B, or C.
I am not sure it has been tried by choice when better options are available. The mistake Sweden (which I pointed out at the time and many others on here as well) is that do not have enough information to determine how to reach herd immunity. Basically when they did it, it was A+B+C=herd immunity but we didn't know A, B, or C.
Re: Covfefe-19 The 10th Part: Might As Well Reject No Shirt, No Shoes While You're At
People get the flu vaccine and still get the flu. Still better off getting the vaccine but it doesn't solve everything. For COVID, people are wearing masks and companies are being forced to reinvent how they operate as it pertains to social distancing, cleaning etc. Just because I don't think an indefinite full lockdown is the way to go doesn't mean I don't support other measures to try and contain the spread. But I guess all these blue states reopening and doing a regional reopening have it wrong too.
And are you suggesting the billionaire tax too? If so, go for it! There's only one problem. It's not going to happen. At least not while Trump is in charge. I don't have the ability to remove him from office till late fall. 6 months away.
People get the flu vaccine and still get the flu. Still better off getting the vaccine but it doesn't solve everything. For COVID, people are wearing masks and companies are being forced to reinvent how they operate as it pertains to social distancing, cleaning etc. Just because I don't think an indefinite full lockdown is the way to go doesn't mean I don't support other measures to try and contain the spread. But I guess all these blue states reopening and doing a regional reopening have it wrong too.
And are you suggesting the billionaire tax too? If so, go for it! There's only one problem. It's not going to happen. At least not while Trump is in charge. I don't have the ability to remove him from office till late fall. 6 months away.
D
Deutsche Gopher Fan
Guest
Bernie wanted to tax billionaires and you really didn’t care for him.
Re: Covfefe-19 The 10th Part: Might As Well Reject No Shirt, No Shoes While You're At
Come on, seriously? Did I ever say that is why I didn't like Bernie?
Come on, seriously? Did I ever say that is why I didn't like Bernie?
psych
Well-known member
Re: Covfefe-19 The 10th Part: Might As Well Reject No Shirt, No Shoes While You're At
What do you propose, JD? I’m not even sure I know what a red state of blue state means most of the time on here. Federal? State? Executive? Legislative?
I find some of the posting here hypocritical, as I think there are some red states doing it as well or better than blue states, but again, I’m not entirely sure what constitutes either.
So, what do you propose? I would assume it’s different than continuing to increase testing, increasing contact tracing capabilities, and strictly enforcing occupational capacity, social distancing, wearing of masks, etc
What do you propose, JD? I’m not even sure I know what a red state of blue state means most of the time on here. Federal? State? Executive? Legislative?
I find some of the posting here hypocritical, as I think there are some red states doing it as well or better than blue states, but again, I’m not entirely sure what constitutes either.So, what do you propose? I would assume it’s different than continuing to increase testing, increasing contact tracing capabilities, and strictly enforcing occupational capacity, social distancing, wearing of masks, etc
Re: Covfefe-19 The 10th Part: Might As Well Reject No Shirt, No Shoes While You're At
Huh? This is exactly what I am on board with. Just not an indefinite full lockdown.
Huh? This is exactly what I am on board with. Just not an indefinite full lockdown.
psych
Well-known member
Fair enough. Would you be for that if it was politically feasible? I agree Trump/Senate Republicans will never actually pass a bill with Democrats that keeps people out indefinitely until a good vaccine is found, or, some other combination of treatments greatly reduces symptoms/improves recovery rates. Could be months. Could be a decade. As SJHovey is wanting people to admit, no one truly knows. If it was politically feasible, I’d be fine with nonessential workers staying home indefinitely until a vaccine or treatment was found.
Slap Shot
I got nothing
Re: Covfefe-19 The 10th Part: Might As Well Reject No Shirt, No Shoes While You're At
Some businesses in Georgia were allowed to reopen on that date. It was not some massive re-opening or changing of restrictions. Whatever.
Some businesses in Georgia were allowed to reopen on that date. It was not some massive re-opening or changing of restrictions. Whatever.
Re: Covfefe-19 The 10th Part: Might As Well Reject No Shirt, No Shoes While You're At
Politically/economically feasible, sure. In general I am for small government but a pandemic certainly calls for the government to step it up. The problem is it's just not in the cards. We're seeing people lose their businesses, laid off workers, depression...the works. So if the government can't/won't keep them afloat then let people back to work.
I myself haven't been impacted thankfully (so far at least). I am one of the fortunate ones so this isn't even about me. In fact in a bizarre turn this has helped my family save $. My wife and I working at home, saving on gas money...kids are here so saving on daycare costs. Haven't had to take a paycut or anything. So for me, while I am getting stir crazy with the kids here and us trying to work, I can handle it. Now if my wife would just let us do central air...
Before all this I worked 2 days a week at home. I'm sure that's only going to increase. When my work starts opening the offices again, I'm sure it will be at least 3 days at home. Maybe more. For my job, I really have no need to even be in an office other than a change of scenery.
Politically/economically feasible, sure. In general I am for small government but a pandemic certainly calls for the government to step it up. The problem is it's just not in the cards. We're seeing people lose their businesses, laid off workers, depression...the works. So if the government can't/won't keep them afloat then let people back to work.
I myself haven't been impacted thankfully (so far at least). I am one of the fortunate ones so this isn't even about me. In fact in a bizarre turn this has helped my family save $. My wife and I working at home, saving on gas money...kids are here so saving on daycare costs. Haven't had to take a paycut or anything. So for me, while I am getting stir crazy with the kids here and us trying to work, I can handle it. Now if my wife would just let us do central air...
Before all this I worked 2 days a week at home. I'm sure that's only going to increase. When my work starts opening the offices again, I'm sure it will be at least 3 days at home. Maybe more. For my job, I really have no need to even be in an office other than a change of scenery.
Handyman
Hug someone you care about...
Re: Covfefe-19 The 10th Part: Might As Well Reject No Shirt, No Shoes While You're At
Uh we have all said no one truly knows. The only thing we knew was not locking down back in March was a massive mistake and would put us right where we are. (tons of needless death) I dont see how anyone can say otherwise...
The problem is the narrative changed from those that opposed us. First it went "It isnt a big deal" then "it doesnt spread that easily" then "well the flu does similar damage" then "well it only affects the old and sick" then "we need to open up to get to herd immunity" and now "well we just have to accept the risk and deal with it" and so on and so on. Meanwhile literally nothing has changed. Every predicted model has come to fruition, and sometimes even faster than expected. We have over 110k dead that we know of since like middle of March, we have states flat out lying about their numbers and we are no closer to having the requisite number of tests needed to truly know what the heck is going on. There are side effects to the disease we havent had enough time to study, we have no idea if the disease causes the creation of antibodies in the blood (though it is assumed) and we cant even be sure of the accuracy of our tests because of how screwed up this was. But people are acting like life is grand and things need to open up so they can sit on a patio somewhere.
There is a blueprint to how to do this, and we basically Cliffs Notesed our way through it. We have done a decent job of spreading things out but we could be way farther along in this process if people had just been willing to sacrifice a bit more and if the Federal Government hadnt been so inept. We are so far behind on certain aspects like testing and tracing who knows whether it will be effective anymore.
This isnt a Blue/Red thing (outside of the people making certain decisions) this is a Right/Wrong thing. A halfway competent federal system in concert with the states could have nipped this in the bud (relatively speaking) in late March and saved tens of thousands of lives. Instead even with our lessening numbers we will still be pushing 170-200k dead by end of summer, not wistanding what the protests brought.
Uh we have all said no one truly knows. The only thing we knew was not locking down back in March was a massive mistake and would put us right where we are. (tons of needless death) I dont see how anyone can say otherwise...
The problem is the narrative changed from those that opposed us. First it went "It isnt a big deal" then "it doesnt spread that easily" then "well the flu does similar damage" then "well it only affects the old and sick" then "we need to open up to get to herd immunity" and now "well we just have to accept the risk and deal with it" and so on and so on. Meanwhile literally nothing has changed. Every predicted model has come to fruition, and sometimes even faster than expected. We have over 110k dead that we know of since like middle of March, we have states flat out lying about their numbers and we are no closer to having the requisite number of tests needed to truly know what the heck is going on. There are side effects to the disease we havent had enough time to study, we have no idea if the disease causes the creation of antibodies in the blood (though it is assumed) and we cant even be sure of the accuracy of our tests because of how screwed up this was. But people are acting like life is grand and things need to open up so they can sit on a patio somewhere.
There is a blueprint to how to do this, and we basically Cliffs Notesed our way through it. We have done a decent job of spreading things out but we could be way farther along in this process if people had just been willing to sacrifice a bit more and if the Federal Government hadnt been so inept. We are so far behind on certain aspects like testing and tracing who knows whether it will be effective anymore.
This isnt a Blue/Red thing (outside of the people making certain decisions) this is a Right/Wrong thing. A halfway competent federal system in concert with the states could have nipped this in the bud (relatively speaking) in late March and saved tens of thousands of lives. Instead even with our lessening numbers we will still be pushing 170-200k dead by end of summer, not wistanding what the protests brought.
psych
Well-known member
Re: Covfefe-19 The 10th Part: Might As Well Reject No Shirt, No Shoes While You're At
Hovey,
I have no doubt you do your own reading/research, but this Vox article touches on the situation in Georgia.
https://www.vox.com/2020/6/4/21267769/georgia-coronavirus-pandemic-covid-cases-deaths-data
Hovey,
I have no doubt you do your own reading/research, but this Vox article touches on the situation in Georgia.
https://www.vox.com/2020/6/4/21267769/georgia-coronavirus-pandemic-covid-cases-deaths-data
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