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Cops 6: The More You Pay, The Faster We'll Come!

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Re: Cops 6: The More You Pay, The Faster We'll Come!

The Rube said:
I have always agreed it has been too many. I have never said otherwise.

I'm against the overall generalization of some here that say police in general cannot be trusted because of the actions of a few. It's bullsh*.
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Until cops start taking their brethren to task when they pull this crap the generalization stands. Sorry but turning a blind eye makes you part of the problem I dont care if everything else you do is correct. Cops have to protect people from EVERYONE not just criminals.

That is the most annoying and painful part of most of these stories...it isnt like it is a lone officer doing random stuff. There is always 1 or 2 with him who do nothing to protect the innocent from the actions of their fellow cop. Good cops would have stopped that. They never do. They stand there frozen, either too weak willed to do anything or too stubborn. They dont get a pass just because they maybe dont agree with the actions. The only ones who do are the ones who fight to get those cops thrown off the force and we both know there arent too many of them. I hate using this analogy but it wasnt the Nazis that were the problem...it was the good little Germans that let the Nazis run roughshod that were the problem. If Officer B thinks Officer A is going to far stop them in the moment, because after the fact it is too late.
 
Re: Cops 6: The More You Pay, The Faster We'll Come!

Handyman said:
Until cops start taking their brethren to task when they pull this crap the generalization stands. Sorry but turning a blind eye makes you part of the problem I dont care if everything else you do is correct. Cops have to protect people from EVERYONE not just criminals.

That is the most annoying and painful part of most of these stories...it isnt like it is a lone officer doing random stuff. There is always 1 or 2 with him who do nothing to protect the innocent from the actions of their fellow cop. Good cops would have stopped that. They never do. They stand there frozen, either too weak willed to do anything or too stubborn. They dont get a pass just because they maybe dont agree with the actions. The only ones who do are the ones who fight to get those cops thrown off the force and we both know there arent too many of them. I hate using this analogy but it wasnt the Nazis that were the problem...it was the good little Germans that let the Nazis run roughshod that were the problem. If Officer B thinks Officer A is going to far stop them in the moment, because after the fact it is too late.
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I don't disagree with you, but I think that's going to be hard.

There is no question that a lot of our law enforcement consists of ex-military guys. These are guys who have been trained that every moment is a matter of life or death, and that you must depend upon your "brother" being there backing you up all the time. Not just 90% of the time. They always have to be there basically willing to die for you or along side you at any given moment.

Law enforcement is obviously not the same. Probably 99% of all interactions by the police with the public aren't dangerous for the officers at all. But that other 1%, or whatever it is, yeah that can be dicey. That could be a matter of life and death.

Think of it this way. Let's say you had to pick up 100 objects from the ground. 99 of them were completely harmless, but the other one will blow your arm off if not handled correctly. I tend to think you'd treat each of the 100 handles with a significant degree of care. Basically, like it's life or death.

So that's why I think you see cops basically treating every single traffic stop, etc..., as if they are clearing a house in Iraq. And if that's your mindset, then you are going to demand and count on complete loyalty and trust with those fellow officers backing you up.

I have no doubt that privately many cops are mortified by what their fellow officers do or have done in their own department and elsewhere across the land. I just think that they have convinced themselves that rolling over on their brothers is going to endanger their own lives.
 
Re: Cops 6: The More You Pay, The Faster We'll Come!

SJHovey said:
I don't disagree with you, but I think that's going to be hard.

There is no question that a lot of our law enforcement consists of ex-military guys. These are guys who have been trained that every moment is a matter of life or death, and that you must depend upon your "brother" being there backing you up all the time. Not just 90% of the time. They always have to be there basically willing to die for you or along side you at any given moment.

Law enforcement is obviously not the same. Probably 99% of all interactions by the police with the public aren't dangerous for the officers at all. But that other 1%, or whatever it is, yeah that can be dicey. That could be a matter of life and death.

Think of it this way. Let's say you had to pick up 100 objects from the ground. 99 of them were completely harmless, but the other one will blow your arm off if not handled correctly. I tend to think you'd treat each of the 100 handles with a significant degree of care. Basically, like it's life or death.

So that's why I think you see cops basically treating every single traffic stop, etc..., as if they are clearing a house in Iraq. And if that's your mindset, then you are going to demand and count on complete loyalty and trust with those fellow officers backing you up.

I have no doubt that privately many cops are mortified by what their fellow officers do or have done in their own department and elsewhere across the land. I just think that they have convinced themselves that rolling over on their brothers is going to endanger their own lives.
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Yeah, but if the process of handling those dicey situations (and under your proposal, the normal ones too) results in the death of people in the normal interactions, then maybe it's time to reconsider your assumption that they need to be handled the same.
 
Re: Cops 6: The More You Pay, The Faster We'll Come!

dxmnkd316 said:
Yeah, but if the process of handling those dicey situations (and under your proposal, the normal ones too) results in the death of people in the normal interactions, then maybe it's time to reconsider your assumption that they need to be handled the same.
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This brings up images of the shooting in which the cops were screaming at a guy lying face down in a hotel hallway, just barking orders at him in such a manner that he had to have been frightened as hell, nervous, and very confused at the same time. Being asked to move in a way that was nearly impossible and even though he never deviated from a position that ever be construed as anything but non-threatening - especially due to the distance - and the cop still ended up unloading on the guy. Made me sick to my stomach.

My view of cops is somewhere between that of Brent and many of his detractors. They are nowhere near as awful as so many here accuse them of being, but there needs to be hard core change in law enforcement. If you watch LivePD you see a lot of situations in which the cops remained very, very calm even though the media would have you believe that never happens. I have to believe that starts with their training and how do we get that to spread to the majority of agencies throughout the country? An initiative from Congress? I'm not sure but we need to have that hard conversation.
 
Re: Cops 6: The More You Pay, The Faster We'll Come!

dxmnkd316 said:
Yeah, but if the process of handling those dicey situations (and under your proposal, the normal ones too) results in the death of people in the normal interactions, then maybe it's time to reconsider your assumption that they need to be handled the same.
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I don't know that it's my assumption that they need to be handled the same. However, I understand why cops say they need to be handled the same, since you never know which one will blow up on you.

Somehow the key has to be in that very short moment after the cop's first interaction with the member of a public in which the danger level has to be quickly and accurately assessed. In an ideal world we're dealing with an objective standard as to how they react, but in reality they'll all probably act differently.
 
Re: Cops 6: The More You Pay, The Faster We'll Come!

Isn’t Live PD ...being filmed? We see all kinds of cops turning their body or car cams off before acting - I’d think if they know they’re on film they may try to be calmer
 
Re: Cops 6: The More You Pay, The Faster We'll Come!

Deutsche Gopher Fan said:
Isn’t Live PD ...being filmed? We see all kinds of cops turning their body or car cams off before acting - I’d think if they know they’re on film they may try to be calmer
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I think there is an element of truth to that. But Live PD is also interesting in that it does show some cops being complete dix. They'll take an interaction with someone they've confronted and in my opinion escalate it. Now, I haven't seen it to the point of them shooting someone, but I've seen them hammer punch some guys in what I would call borderline situations, at least from the safety of my living room.
 
Re: Cops 6: The More You Pay, The Faster We'll Come!

SJHovey said:
I don't know that it's my assumption that they need to be handled the same. However, I understand why cops say they need to be handled the same, since you never know which one will blow up on you.

Somehow the key has to be in that very short moment after the cop's first interaction with the member of a public in which the danger level has to be quickly and accurately assessed. In an ideal world we're dealing with an objective standard as to how they react, but in reality they'll all probably act differently.
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Sorry but the fallacy of cops having "the most dangerous job EVAH!!" is ridiculous. Statistics show it isnt nearly as dangerous as they make it out to be and more often than not they escalate it to the point of danger anyways. Their disregard for the lives of the people they are encountering is what makes things worse. Criminals may be bad people but they are still people and what we see when these videos come out is cops dont treat them as such.

But even if we take it on face that cops truly have fear in these interactions...then dont be a friggin cop. If you live in constant fear that every person who shoplifts a doll from the dollar store is going to kill you, then the problem is YOU not them. Get a different job, get some counseling and be happy. They wont do that though, because whatever job they could handle wouldnt give them the power they crave.

Sorry I am sick of this...cops get treated with kid gloves because they "put their lives on the line to protect us" and yet they never get taken to task when they dont live up to their end. We are supposed to feel safe because they are around and honestly I dont. They dont know how to deal with tough situations and de-escalate which means most likely someone is getting hurt. Teachers are better trained to deal with criminals these days than cops are.
 
Re: Cops 6: The More You Pay, The Faster We'll Come!

Slap Shot said:
This brings up images of the shooting in which the cops were screaming at a guy lying face down in a hotel hallway, just barking orders at him in such a manner that he had to have been frightened as hell, nervous, and very confused at the same time. Being asked to move in a way that was nearly impossible and even though he never deviated from a position that ever be construed as anything but non-threatening - especially due to the distance - and the cop still ended up unloading on the guy. Made me sick to my stomach.

My view of cops is somewhere between that of Brent and many of his detractors. They are nowhere near as awful as so many here accuse them of being, but there needs to be hard core change in law enforcement. If you watch LivePD you see a lot of situations in which the cops remained very, very calm even though the media would have you believe that never happens. I have to believe that starts with their training and how do we get that to spread to the majority of agencies throughout the country? An initiative from Congress? I'm not sure but we need to have that hard conversation.
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I tend to agree.

With one exception though. LivePD features the best that department probably has to offer and they know they have several cameras filming them on a delay, but still effectively live.
Handyman said:
Sorry but the fallacy of cops having "the most dangerous job EVAH!!" is ridiculous. Statistics show it isnt nearly as dangerous as they make it out to be and more often than not they escalate it to the point of danger anyways. Their disregard for the lives of the people they are encountering is what makes things worse. Criminals may be bad people but they are still people and what we see when these videos come out is cops dont treat them as such.

But even if we take it on face that cops truly have fear in these interactions...then dont be a friggin cop. If you live in constant fear that every person who shoplifts a doll from the dollar store is going to kill you, then the problem is YOU not them. Get a different job, get some counseling and be happy. They wont do that though, because whatever job they could handle wouldnt give them the power they crave.

Sorry I am sick of this...cops get treated with kid gloves because they "put their lives on the line to protect us" and yet they never get taken to task when they dont live up to their end. We are supposed to feel safe because they are around and honestly I dont. They dont know how to deal with tough situations and de-escalate which means most likely someone is getting hurt. Teachers are better trained to deal with criminals these days than cops are.
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Completely agree. This has been discussed several times. I think it was you or kepler last time that said they know what they're getting into and they have a duty to the community, not necessarily to themselves. That balance is way, way out of whack right now. Their training is to protect themselves without much thought or consideration for the people they've made contact with. The rules of engagement need to be changed so much so that we don't refer to them as "rules of engagement". That's essentially a military-driven concept that is leading you to the end goal of "fire your weapon" when it should be leading more towards "How do I defuse this situation?"

The cops act like soldiers are are no longer a community service. We all live in Baghdad now, not Mayberry.
 
Re: Cops 6: The More You Pay, The Faster We'll Come!

And that makes Andy, Bea, Opie and the crew very sad. btw I still watch reruns of that show to this day.
 
Re: Cops 6: The More You Pay, The Faster We'll Come!

I've read that police academies will spend 3 weeks on firearms and self defense training and barely 8 hours on de-escalation/conflict management.
 
Re: Cops 6: The More You Pay, The Faster We'll Come!

WeAreNDHockey said:
There is no data to show just how many bad cops there are Brent.

And by the way, I don't bother with the cops either. I suppose there might come a time when it is unavoidable, but due to my disrespect for most in the profession and my belief in their ineffectiveness I don't bother with them and can't imagine needing to. I'm a firm believer in the adage that when seconds count, the cops are only minutes away.
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1. They point out all the bad, but rarely is the good reported, comparatively.
2. Good, if you don't trust the cops, don't ask them for help, which is why I made the original comment in the first place. "I DON'T TRUST COPS! Wait, 911? I need cops, I'm in trouble." It's bullsh*. Tired of it.

YES there are bad cops, I have never denied it. As Slap said, are they as bad as they are made out to be here? No. Not even close.
 
Re: Cops 6: The More You Pay, The Faster We'll Come!

The notion that having cops come from the ranks of the military might be the issue really tells me more about the current state of the military than anything else. Cops have ALWAYS been coming from the ranks of the military. Lots of vets from both war and peacetime have always populated the ranks of police departments. It's just that a power hungry racist richard-head is a power hungry racist richard-head.

To me there is a line of demarcation and it is 9-11. For some reason, after 9-11 the hero worship was turned up to 11 and beyond for all things law enforcement and military. To a certain extent, I get it. We shouldn't spit on soldiers coming back from serving, but that was really a myth anyway -- do the research before you accept that as a widespread phenomenon. And for the few proven examples of it happening, there were plenty of similar examples of anti-war protesters getting spit on. Anti-WAR protesters, not anti-military personnel protesters. And we shouldn't throw good cops trying to make their communities a better place under the first bus we see.

All I'm saying is, as a society we should be willing and able to do that AND weed out the ones who don't belong. If the so-called "good cops" out there would just make the first move, I bet people like me all over the place would pick up the ball too.
 
Re: Cops 6: The More You Pay, The Faster We'll Come!

Agree on the military, with a footnote: the old-school military fought countries. The new-school military fights a movement, where ANYONE can be a soldier of sorts. So, yes, have to retrain them in that aspect, which may prove to be impossible in some cases.

Of course, there are the age-old (yet valid) budget constraints, and the whole "Hey, how would you like to potentially put your life on the line for a job?"

It's a tough gig, and those who take it are a different breed, that's for sure.
 
Re: Cops 6: The More You Pay, The Faster We'll Come!

In theory, the psych exam should be weeding out most of the bad apples. But if the department is desperate to fill jobs (which many are), and/or you get a candidate who fudges some of his answers to the shrink (and there's no other evidence of trouble), guess what happens?
 
Re: Cops 6: The More You Pay, The Faster We'll Come!

FadeToBlack&Gold said:
In theory, the psych exam should be weeding out most of the bad apples. But if the department is desperate to fill jobs (which many are), and/or you get a candidate who fudges some of his answers to the shrink (and there's no other evidence of trouble), guess what happens?
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I agree. The obvious answer is to start paying more, therefore being more selective in the long run. Otherwise we have a shortage (like we do now) and any warm body will do.
 
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