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Conference playoffs scary teams

Re: Conference playoffs scary teams

The WCHA, as currently constituted, was actually founded in 1959. It was the MCHL in 1951 and the WIHL until 1958.

The ECAC was founded in 1962.

The CCHA was founded in 1971.

Hockey East was founded in 1984.

The Atlantic Hockey Association was founded in 2003 (as part of NCAA division 1).

Then there's the Ivy League, which is a thing in and of itself and I won't get into it here.

All other things being equal, you'd assume that how likely it would be for a conference to win would depend on how many other conferences there are and how many teams are in those conferences. (I'm assuming here all teams are equally good, and the distribution is truly random, so that any differences are indicative of the quality of the team and the conference it is in.)

Just looking at the years, the WCHA had no rival as a conference for eleven seasons, from 1951 until 1962. They may not have won every national title held in that period, as there may have been independents, or schools that would later form another league, such as BC in 1949 and RPI in 1954. Even if you assign the national championships belonging to teams that eventually formed the league, or are currently in a league, it's doubtful to me that it's a fair method of comparing leagues.

So in those 11 seasons (ten of which held their national championship games at CC's home rink, where the Tigers played for the title four times and won it twice-- no neutral sites in those days) the WCHA won nine times. If you group all teams as "WCHA teams" and "all other teams" you'd expect them to win 50%, although I'd argue that it's debatable whether the assembly of Independent teams really did have a 50% shot at the time; many of those championship games were blowouts of the 7-1, 7-3, 13-6 and 13-4 variety.

So the first decade or so of the last 60 years of hockey history begins with utter dominance of a league that is the only organized college hockey league at the division 1 level, either playing amongst itself for the national title, or wiping the floor with Eastern teams apparently not of the same caliber. The only exception was 1949, where BC played Dartmouth in the final. So the WCHA's national title rate is almost 82%, and should either have been 100% (if you consider that no other conference can win it, since none of the other conferences exist yet) or 50%, if you consider "all non-WCHA teams" to be a conference. It's arguable that these years skew the all-time results in a way that is difficult to account for when attempting to compare the conferences today.

From 1959-1969 the picture is a little different, but not much. The tournament got moved around starting in 1958. The ECAC is founded in 1962, although no member wins a national championship since Cornell in 1967. From the East in those years, only Clarkson and St. Lawrence even make it to a final. In 1960, the National Championship game was held at Matthews Arena in Boston-- between Denver and Michigan Tech.

Denver, Michigan, Michigan Tech, and North Dakota win every national championship in that decade except the one won by Cornell-- in which they beat Boston University. So that's another strong decade for the WCHA, which won 90% of the decade's championships, although that includes 3 seasons where there was no other league, and 7 where that league was an arguably much weaker ECAC.

Things become a lot more comparable in the 70s. Eastern teams win four national championships (Cornell and BU), and more eastern teams make the field (BC and Clarkson). For a five-year span, the tourney is held either in New York or in Boston. The CCHA is founded in 1971 but does not win a national championship this decade. Against one league in its infancy (the CCHA) and one in its second decade (ECAC) the WCHA wins six of ten national championships for a win percentage of 60%-- double what you'd expect the mathematical 33% to be, if every league had an equal chance. (There's been no compensation for league size here-- the league history pages for the WCHA show when schools joined and left, but not all of them do.)

In short, WCHA teams spent three decades winning nearly all of the national championships because they were the first organized league by more than a decade, and the other leagues don't rise their play to a level to even approach having an equal chance to win for the WCHA's first thirty years.

As you point out, the last 20 years, with four major conferences, you'd expect each to win at a rate of about 25%-- or five championships. In that span, the WCHA has won three more than expected (40%), Hockey East two more than expected (35%), and the CCHA exactly as many as expected (25%), while the ECAC has won none.

The "35 titles in 58 years" is not a number that can be compared to anything, because for much too long during that span there were no other leagues at all, or else no competitive leagues. During the period where all four current extant leagues can be said to have been competitive, the WCHA has been more successful to almost exactly the same extent to which it can be said that the ECAC has been unsuccessful, and only slightly more successful than Hockey East (which arguably only came into existence in 1986, but essentially skimmed the cream off the top of the ECAC to form a new league, and then added other members later.) The WCHA's number over 58 years is lifted to 60% by adding in results in three decades in which there was little or no credible, organized competition. The numbers excluding that period come much closer to approaching parity, the ECAC's drought notwithstanding.

For Hockey East to equal the WCHA's all-time national championship winning percentage at 60%, they would have to, as you put it, win 28 of the next 32. I'm sure they'll be willing to make the attempt if the WCHA agrees to disband this year, the CCHA in ten years, and the ECAC ten years after that, just so that Hockey East can have a chance to achieve the same feat under the same conditions as the WCHA did. :)

too much spare time...need to get a job;)
 
Re: Conference playoffs scary teams

'81-'87 there were 8 teams, and again four from the east and four from the west, playing each other. The west again dominates, with the WCHA winning 4 and the CCHA winning 2, RPI winning the other.

And in '54, we spoiled 6 straight Michigan titles. We love spoiling a good thing... :P
 
Re: Conference playoffs scary teams

This thread went from moderately interesting to another conference dick measuring contest. Lame.
 
Re: Conference playoffs scary teams

This thread went from moderately interesting to another conference dick measuring contest. Lame.

Agreed....and I was part of this going haywire :)

Here were my original "scary" teams...

WCHA: SCSU and Minnesota
CCHA: Alaska and Miami
Hockey East: Maine and BU
Atlantic Hockey: Robert Morris (I'd also include Niagara)
 
Re: Conference playoffs scary teams

In the CCHA, (the only one I've paid enough attention to to really comment on), whoever comes out of the 4/5 FSU-WMU series will be the most interesting on a national level. They avoid having to win 2 of 3 vs. Miami/Michigan/Notre Dame and will get into a 2 game neutral ice shot at a bid.

I'd give Alaska the best shot of the 6-11 teams of reaching the Joe, if they're playing their every game will be a 2-1 final style of hockey. The top 3 are in a different group from the rest of the conference, though, so I expect the seeds to be 1-5 in Detroit.
 
Re: Conference playoffs scary teams

... I was hopeing for a more interesting conclusion to that novel you just wrote.

Calling for the WCHA to be disbanded, as a defense of the quality of Hockey East... that's not interesting enough? ;-)

You raise valid points regarding the length of time each conference has been in existence. However, you have to remember one thing. From the 1947-48 season through the 1979-80 season, a stretch in which WCHA teams clearly dominated the championships, by everyone's agreement, the NCAA put two eastern teams and two western teams in the Frozen Four. Didn't matter which conference they belonged to. You win two games and you're the champ. The west dominated. To the extent they played another WCHA team for the championship, it's because both WCHA teams beat eastern teams in the semi's.

Since I acknowledge the Western dominance in that era, that's already been accounted for. Whether the Eastern teams that did play earned their spots, or had them handed to them, doesn't matter if the Western teams end up winning all the time anyway, which they did.


But it's at that point you start to see more parity. It results from two principle factors, imho. First, the HE-WCHA scheduling agreement from the mid-80's that resulted in substantially more, and meaningful, games played between eastern and western teams during the regular season. Second, the expansion again of the number of teams in the tournament.

Exactly. Without interconference play, parity can't emerge, and since that point, things have been a lot close to parity, at least between the WCHA and HE, if not also with the CCHA.

too much spare time...need to get a job ;)

Got one, thanks for the concern and for reading. The job allows me enough flexibility to schedule a little personal research now and again.

This thread went from moderately interesting to another conference dick measuring contest. Lame.

Didn't really intend that; just wanted to try and suggest that looking at the first 3-4 decades of college hockey in the rearview mirror can be deceiving; some dicks are not as large as they appear.
 
Re: Conference playoffs scary teams

Scary = Maine then NU (and Merrimack gets one of them). To me, ME is scarier because of Nyquist. NU is tough, but they don't have that "game changer" kind of player.
 
Re: Conference playoffs scary teams

Scary = Maine then NU (and Merrimack gets one of them). To me, ME is scarier because of Nyquist. NU is tough, but they don't have that "game changer" kind of player.

Wade MacLeod ain't Nyquist but he is a scorer that can create his own shot. Has 2 more goals this seasons than Gustav.
 
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Re: Conference playoffs scary teams

Until 1984 Hockey East was in the ECAC...that's right, BC, BU etc came to "our" barns. It was great...I remember Lou Lamorella's #1 team in the country Providence coming to Starr !
 
Re: Conference playoffs scary teams

SCSU with a big win over Denver tonight

Dude... I agree SCSU has been playing well. 4-1-2 against UMD, UND, UW and DU is impressive, but you know what? If other fans say we're a scary team, fine. But its kinda lame when you keep bringing up your own team and start a thread about scary teams and list your own.
 
Re: Conference playoffs scary teams

I'm actually a little disappointed we are labeled as a scary team. We should have played like this all year and been labeled as a possible favorite instead of a late season surging team that no one wants to see.
 
Re: Conference playoffs scary teams

SCSU with a big win over Denver tonight

Dude... I agree SCSU has been playing well. 4-1-2 against UMD, UND, UW and DU is impressive, but you know what? If other fans say we're a scary team, fine. But its kinda lame when you keep bringing up your own team and start a thread about scary teams and list your own.

Could SCSU be overrated in their scariness? Good win on the road but Denver is a team that is struggling right now.

That being said I would be okay if we didn't play you guys :D
 
Re: Conference playoffs scary teams

I'm actually a little disappointed we are labeled as a scary team. We should have played like this all year and been labeled as a possible favorite instead of a late season surging team that no one wants to see.

I would rather play the blackhawks than you right now.
 
Re: Conference playoffs scary teams

I'm actually a little disappointed we are labeled as a scary team. We should have played like this all year and been labeled as a possible favorite instead of a late season surging team that no one wants to see.

Season moral victory!
 
Re: Conference playoffs scary teams

ECAC was founded in 1982 not 1962.

Nope, 1962.

"The ECAC Hockey League was founded in 1962. In June 1983, concerns that the Ivy League schools were potentially leaving the conference and disagreements over schedule length versus academics caused Boston University, Boston College, Providence, Northeastern and New Hampshire to decide to leave the ECAC to form what would become Hockey East, which began play in 1984-1985 season."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECAC_Hockey

The ECAC site's history page also lists records by season from 1962-1982.

http://www.ecachockey.com/men/history/index

There's also a timeline that starts in 1961.

"1961 - Starting from a dispute between the New England and New York schools, the Eastern College Athletic Conference formed, with no fewer than 28 teams competing in the league’s first three years."

http://www.ecachockey.com/men/history/M_timeline.pdf
 
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