Christ is Risen!

[DaveStPaul]

Re: Christ is Risen!

Statistically, the happiest nations on Earth are Denmark, Norway, Finland, and the Netherlands. Source All of which are rather irreligious.

Don't they also blow their brains out with alarming frequency up there?

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Christ is Risen!

Which reinforces that other source which pointed out the link between social/economic conditions and religion..

A New York Times 2011 study says that American Catholics, Lutherans, Mormons, Methodists, Presbyterians, Orthodox Christians, Buddhists, Unitarians, Anglicans/Episcopalians, Conservative Jews, Reform Jews and Hindus all have higher income rates than the national average. Go fish again.

While wiki is a nice place to start looking for information, everything in bold can just as easily be found going to other social groups, negating it as a benefit purely found from religion. Connecting happiness from religion in this way is like saying the economy will get better if you stop spending and give the rich, I mean job creators tax cuts. It's focusing on one tree without noticing the forest.

Who said happiness is purely found in religion?

Doesn't matter whether its forest or trees...statistically people of faith are happier.

 

[huskyfan]

Re: Christ is Risen!

anyone who looks at life with caring compassion love and gratitude is going to be happier. duh.

I'm curious. for those who revile the Christian faith. how do you feel about other faiths? Jews? Muslims? Hindus? Buddhists?

if the Christian theology is a little hard to follow (and it sure can be), perhaps a faith like Buddhism can be easier. and it teaches all the good stuff - love, self sacrifice, compassion, community, appreciation of nature, without having to directly "worship" a "God".

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Christ is Risen!

anyone who looks at life with caring compassion love and gratitude is going to be happier. duh.

I'll buy this.

However, not all (not even CLOSE to all) Christians I have met (and I grew up in Tennessee, so I've met a lot) fall into that category. In my unscientific, anecdotal estimation, the proportion of Christians who are those things really isn't any higher or lower than the general population. Even if someone were able to define a metric and find a correlation, is that because people who are naturally compassionate are drawn to Christianity, or because Christianity causes people to become more compassionate than they otherwise would have been?

edit: I've personally witnessed many of my friends who started out as very kind, compassionate people transform into judgmental, self-righteous, jerks as they got deeper and deeper into their "faith." The more Bible study and theological reading they do, the more they start to care about the nuances of infant vs. adult baptism, etc and the less they start to care about loving their neighbors. You don't need a Bible study or a church or even a religion to love your neighbors - you just don't.

 

[French Rage]

Re: Christ is Risen!

Don't they also blow their brains out with alarming frequency up there?

You spend your entire life eating mackerel and see how you feel.

 

[Foxton]

Re: Christ is Risen!

A New York Times 2011 study says that American Catholics, Lutherans, Mormons, Methodists, Presbyterians, Orthodox Christians, Buddhists, Unitarians, Anglicans/Episcopalians, Conservative Jews, Reform Jews and Hindus all have higher income rates than the national average. Go fish again.

This study? Where's secular at?

And considering you just listed off about 85% of the population, go figure that they might have a higher average income than the other 15%. And jews control the fed/banks so they will obviously have higher income.

statistically people of faith are happier.

Faith in what? It's not intrinsic to any particular religion if it's a blanket statement. And yes it does matter if it's forest or a tree. What methodology is being used to calculate how much happier these people are? What are the overlaps? As per your own quote, nearly everything you gave as a reason why people of "faith" are happier can be found elsewhere.

Oh look, another study that also points out that it's the social interaction, not any specific part of the religion that increases happiness.

 

[DaveStPaul]

Re: Christ is Risen!

You spend your entire life eating mackerel and see how you feel.

Uh, no thanks, their actions speak for themselves.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Christ is Risen!

This study? Where's secular at?

Its approximately average...and the dispersion of data points in no way reinforces your point of a relationship between religion and socioeconomic status.

Faith in what? It's not intrinsic to any particular religion if it's a blanket statement. And yes it does matter if it's forest or a tree. What methodology is being used to calculate how much happier these people are? What are the overlaps? As per your own quote, nearly everything you gave as a reason why people of "faith" are happier can be found elsewhere.

Oh look, another study that also points out that it's the social interaction, not any specific part of the religion that increases happiness.

You're the one who's been making blanket statements about faith.

Congrats on your second study. I've been saying evidence is not slanted towards religion makes folks unhappy as you're claiming.

 

[Foxton]

Re: Christ is Risen!

Its approximately average...and the dispersion of data points in no way reinforces your point of a relationship between religion and socioeconomic status.

Perhaps if you had read the source about socioeconomic status and how religious someone is you'd understand why I don't care to repeat a point you are missing. And claims of being a part of a religion are not the same as how serious they are about following through with it.

You're the one who's been making blanket statements about faith.

Okay.

Congrats on your second study. I've been saying evidence is not slanted towards religion makes folks unhappy as you're claiming.

When did I say religion makes folks unhappy? Quote pls. I've only ever said that the things that make religious people happy are things that can be found elsewhere and it's not due to it being somehow superior.

 

[leswp1]

Re: Christ is Risen!

I'll buy this.

However, not all (not even CLOSE to all) Christians I have met (and I grew up in Tennessee, so I've met a lot) fall into that category. In my unscientific, anecdotal estimation, the proportion of Christians who are those things really isn't any higher or lower than the general population. Even if someone were able to define a metric and find a correlation, is that because people who are naturally compassionate are drawn to Christianity, or because Christianity causes people to become more compassionate than they otherwise would have been?

edit: I've personally witnessed many of my friends who started out as very kind, compassionate people transform into judgmental, self-righteous, jerks as they got deeper and deeper into their "faith." The more Bible study and theological reading they do, the more they start to care about the nuances of infant vs. adult baptism, etc and the less they start to care about loving their neighbors. You don't need a Bible study or a church or even a religion to love your neighbors - you just don't.

I think it depends on where you are living/ what type of faith is prevelent. One of our local Baptist churches is a fire and brimstone variety- they are really the only ones that teach everyone goes to Hell who is not a believer. The other Baptist church is a God loves everyone type. Most people around here are Catholic and definitely not of the everyone goes to Hell type. That would take too much effort to think about on their part.

When I was in grad school we had to take a class on Family Systems (fascinating!). One of the activities was splitting people into different groups by Faiths. There were Lutherans (all 2 of us) and then he split the Catholics (most of the remainder) into ethnic Catholic groups- French, Irish, Italian are the ones I remember. We had to discuss in our group the roll of Church and God in the family structure. I had always assumed Catholics were the same. Each group described a completely different experience with God and Church. The Irish group thought God was vindictive and angry, out to get them if they screwed up. The French thought God was judgemental and punished their sins but not as angry as the Irish God. The Italians thought God would get over almost anything and altho he was important it didn't scare them to mess up. It was one of the most interesting classes we had. Very enlightening.

Don't they also blow their brains out with alarming frequency up there?

Ha I thought that too. Bipolar populations? Either happy as pigs in poo or suicidal.

 

[geezer]

Re: Christ is Risen!

Hey Foxton! It turns out religion is good for you!
hee hee

more good stuff in the linked Forbes article. The difference put forth for the success of the religious/failure of secularism is that religious people have more kids, which is the most important component of (long-term) prosperity/happiness/well-being/etc.

 

[duper]

Re: Christ is Risen!

You spend your entire life eating mackerel and see how you feel.

One word. Lutefisk. I'd blow my brains out the first time.

 

[Greyeagle]

Re: Christ is Risen!

The Irish group thought God was vindictive and angry, out to get them if they screwed up.

Living under British rule for so long has that affect!

 

[huskyfan]

Re: Christ is Risen!

The Irish group thought God was vindictive and angry, out to get them if they screwed up. The French thought God was judgemental and punished their sins but not as angry as the Irish God. The Italians thought God would get over almost anything and altho he was important it didn't scare them to mess up.

the Italians are like "hey, wine, women, its all coool" the French are like, "God? he dares JUDGE the French? oui?" and the poor Irish are "we are ***"....

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: Christ is Risen!

Foxton is just a bitter, lonely, trolling POS who makes the rest of us skeptics look like complete arseholes. There, I said it. Blow me.

 

[Timothy A]

Re: Christ is Risen!

I'll buy this.

edit: I've personally witnessed many of my friends who started out as very kind, compassionate people transform into judgmental, self-righteous, jerks as they got deeper and deeper into their "faith." The more Bible study and theological reading they do, the more they start to care about the nuances of infant vs. adult baptism, etc and the less they start to care about loving their neighbors. You don't need a Bible study or a church or even a religion to love your neighbors - you just don't.

There are no nuances about adult vs infant baptism. The Bible does not differentiate. Baptism is Baptism.

Loving your neighbors certianly is not limited to Christians. It's sad your friends have digressed to the point they are. We shoud not pass judgement on others and get all self righteous. Look at yourself first, humbly confess your sins, and repent/change your ways. (The below passages are also a good example of Jesus showing us that the Old Testament Law is now overwritten by New Testament Gospel. I think Foxy was griping about this previously.)

John 8 V1... but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.
2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”
11 “No one, sir,” she said.

It's hard to get self-righteous when you look at yourself and see you are dripping with sin. It is our job to point out sin, but that can be done without the ugly self-righteousness. And if they don't repent, you have to let it go and move on.

Matthew 18 v15
15 “If your brother or sister sins,[c] go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’[d] 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Happiess...My family has all sorts of problems, but when you place your trust in God, pray to him for help, and lovingly accept his answers to your prayers, (which don't always have the outcome you desire), it really takes a load off your chest. You just do your best with the gifts he's given you and keep thankfully chugging along, knowing that Heaven is your home. A few more verses.

1 Thessalonians 5 16-18
16 Rejoice always, 17 pray continually, 18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus.

 

[state of hockey]

anyone who looks at life with caring compassion love and gratitude is going to be happier. duh.

I'm curious. for those who revile the Christian faith. how do you feel about other faiths? Jews? Muslims? Hindus? Buddhists?


if the Christian theology is a little hard to follow (and it sure can be), perhaps a faith like Buddhism can be easier. and it teaches all the good stuff - love, self sacrifice, compassion, community, appreciation of nature, without having to directly "worship" a "God".

You do realize that people don't have to believe in any of this to be able to treat others in compassion, right?

 

[cF[Authentic]]

You do realize that people don't have to believe in any of this to be able to treat others in compassion, right?

I'm guessing he does considering he didn't say anything close to what you're asking him. Let's just all agree that everyone agrees anyone can treat others compassionately regardless of religious affiliation or atheistic lifestyle. Not one person in this thread has said otherwise and it is extremely doubtful anyone believes compassion is reserved for Christians, or anyone religious.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Christ is Risen!

Good post Tim A. I wonder if part of Lynah's deal is not Christianity but rather his local. The handful of churches I attend...that type is the exception and not the norm.

You do realize that people don't have to believe in any of this to be able to treat others in compassion, right?

Agree with cF on this. IMO Christianity and Jesus are the primary driver/source of compassion and likewise, that Christianity reinforces compassion in you to the nth degree. Its really the place for compassion junkies.

 

[Foxton]

Re: Christ is Risen!

Hey Foxton! It turns out religion is good for you!

And it's good that men take over so women start to know their place in the home as baby factories as one source for the forbes article points out.

http://www.newamerica.net/publications/articles/2006/the_return_of_patriarchy

more good stuff in the linked Forbes article. The difference put forth for the success of the religious/failure of secularism is that religious people have more kids, which is the most important component of (long-term) prosperity/happiness/well-being/etc.

In other news, having more kids generally means you have the means to do so, which means you're likely more better off than a single mom living on wellfare trying to scrape by. Gee, people who are successful enough to support 3 or more kids are happier than those who have to chose between rent or food? SHOCKING!

Loving your neighbors certianly is not limited to Christians. It's sad your friends have digressed to the point they are. We shoud not pass judgement on others and get all self righteous. Look at yourself first, humbly confess your sins, and repent/change your ways. (The below passages are also a good example of Jesus showing us that the Old Testament Law is now overwritten by New Testament Gospel. I think Foxy was griping about this previously.)

Because Jesus says it....

Luke 16:17 The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it. It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

Cast the first stone story...


It's hard to get self-righteous when you look at yourself and see you are dripping with sin. It is our job to point out sin, but that can be done without the ugly self-righteousness. And if they don't repent, you have to let it go and move on.

It's an old testament law reference just like your next passage, in this case needing witnesses, and in the other where to go for deciding issues about interpersonal sin that will be resolved by removing them from the congregation. Not applied wholesale to everyone.

A few more verses.

How bout?

You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.”

And he said to them: “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observec your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’d and, ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death. But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban’ (that is, a gift devoted to God), then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

How about beating servants? Or you know, slaves. What say you on that Jeebus?

The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

Agree with cF on this. IMO Christianity and Jesus are the primary driver/source of compassion and likewise, that Christianity reinforces compassion in you to the nth degree. Its really the place for compassion junkies.

How does the concept of hell and everlasting torment fit into the word "compassion"?