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Christ is Risen!
- Thread starter Timothy A
- Start date
Timothy A
Let's go RED!
Re: Christ is Risen!
It really doesn't bother me, believers know the true meaning of these events. I'm sure someone whose into cultural history can explain the basis eskimo and rabbit, which as a student of history I am curious to know. I'll have to wiki it.
My post wasn't intended as a shot at religion. I'm not religious, but if I was I might be a little ticked off that one of the holiest days of the year has been reduced to nothing more than a chance for Hershey and Cadbury to sell more chocolate. Likewise, the Bible, Qur'an and Torah are all silent on the mysterious Eskimo in a red suit who comes down my chimney and leaves a stocking full of gifts in exchange for a plate of cookies.
It really doesn't bother me, believers know the true meaning of these events. I'm sure someone whose into cultural history can explain the basis eskimo and rabbit, which as a student of history I am curious to know. I'll have to wiki it.
Foxton
Banned
Re: Christ is Risen!
Don't worry, I'm sure there will be a wedge (document) that'll keep that gap open.
Passover and the entire exodus myth always tickle my funny bone. Celebrating an event marked by the wholesale slaughter of all non-jew first born sons by their god, because he himself made it so they wouldn't be released from a captivity. (that never happened anyway)
That guy sounds kind of like a dick. I think I'll go with Thor.
So since no one wants to answer, what should be simple questions, let the blasphemy begin!
Don't worry, I'm sure there will be a wedge (document) that'll keep that gap open.
Passover and the entire exodus myth always tickle my funny bone. Celebrating an event marked by the wholesale slaughter of all non-jew first born sons by their god, because he himself made it so they wouldn't be released from a captivity. (that never happened anyway)
That guy sounds kind of like a dick. I think I'll go with Thor.
P
Priceless
Guest
Re: Christ is Risen!
Without going to wikipedia, I think the origin of St. Nicholas/Kris Kringle was the Nordic countries. It was originally a man who (depending on the myth) gave toys, shoes or other presents to kids in the winter. As I recall, in one version he gave kids shoes so their feet wouldn't freeze in winter. As the population of people who believed in him grew, he changed in appearance and purpose until we eventually have the incredibly commercialized version we've had for the past 150 years or so. How he went from a kindly man who gave kids shoes in early winter to a guy who lives at the North Pole, rides a red sleigh pulled by flying reindeer that travel several times faster than the speed of light and visits every home in Christendom at midnight on Christmas Eve (in between swigs of Coke and a pack of smokes and whatever else he can sell) is an amazing evolution.
I have no idea how the story of Jesus rising from the grave became a story about a rabbit laying chocolate eggs, but I'm betting the person responsible was smoking some incredible stuff.
Without going to wikipedia, I think the origin of St. Nicholas/Kris Kringle was the Nordic countries. It was originally a man who (depending on the myth) gave toys, shoes or other presents to kids in the winter. As I recall, in one version he gave kids shoes so their feet wouldn't freeze in winter. As the population of people who believed in him grew, he changed in appearance and purpose until we eventually have the incredibly commercialized version we've had for the past 150 years or so. How he went from a kindly man who gave kids shoes in early winter to a guy who lives at the North Pole, rides a red sleigh pulled by flying reindeer that travel several times faster than the speed of light and visits every home in Christendom at midnight on Christmas Eve (in between swigs of Coke and a pack of smokes and whatever else he can sell) is an amazing evolution.
I have no idea how the story of Jesus rising from the grave became a story about a rabbit laying chocolate eggs, but I'm betting the person responsible was smoking some incredible stuff.
ExileOnDaytonStreet
Drunkard
MountieBoyOz
Eater of Worlds
Re: Christ is Risen!
Not religion related, but this could've been a bad Easter for someone.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...g-hunt-stumbles-Second-World-War-grenade.html
Not religion related, but this could've been a bad Easter for someone.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...g-hunt-stumbles-Second-World-War-grenade.html
Re: Christ is Risen!
It's hard to take seriously the claim that your multiple posts "weren't intended as a shot at religion," when that's exactly what they are. Why deny the obvious? Apart from proving you're an athiest troll, what's your point? What I find offensive is you can't EVER give it a rest, just once. Insulting people of faith is a big part of what you do and presumably why you exist. Pathetic is the word that pops into my mind. Pathetic and dishonest, with yourself and us. You and that other dipstick as well.
My post wasn't intended as a shot at religion. I'm not religious, but if I was I might be a little ticked off that one of the holiest days of the year has been reduced to nothing more than a chance for Hershey and Cadbury to sell more chocolate. Likewise, the Bible, Qur'an and Torah are all silent on the mysterious Eskimo in a red suit who comes down my chimney and leaves a stocking full of gifts in exchange for a plate of cookies.
It's hard to take seriously the claim that your multiple posts "weren't intended as a shot at religion," when that's exactly what they are. Why deny the obvious? Apart from proving you're an athiest troll, what's your point? What I find offensive is you can't EVER give it a rest, just once. Insulting people of faith is a big part of what you do and presumably why you exist. Pathetic is the word that pops into my mind. Pathetic and dishonest, with yourself and us. You and that other dipstick as well.
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MUnRPI
New member
Re: Christ is Risen!
It just amazes me how many of the atheist folk around here take pride in making condescending remarks to people of faith, as if they are the evolved and intellectually superior members of the human race. I completely understand the negativity that non believers have towards non-practicing Christians, because there are so many clerical vs. secular political issues in America today. But for them to consistently mock, what might be someones most sincere belief, is childish and selfish.
It just amazes me how many of the atheist folk around here take pride in making condescending remarks to people of faith, as if they are the evolved and intellectually superior members of the human race. I completely understand the negativity that non believers have towards non-practicing Christians, because there are so many clerical vs. secular political issues in America today. But for them to consistently mock, what might be someones most sincere belief, is childish and selfish.
Re: Christ is Risen!
Oh, and another revelation I had this morning.... You guys know when its the best time to fart in church?? When the Choir is singing. Unless its just some total rifle blast coming out, there's nobody that's going to hear it, and unless the choir is really bad or people start dropping from the gas, nobody is going to look around to figure out who dealt it.
well, it is kind of the most important part of the whole Jesus story, that he popped back up after taking the worst that the Romans could dish out short of actual disembodiment. I kind of think it would have helped their case a little more if they had bothered to figure out an actual date to celebrate it on, instead of just picking out a random Sunday early in the spring.
Oh, and another revelation I had this morning.... You guys know when its the best time to fart in church?? When the Choir is singing. Unless its just some total rifle blast coming out, there's nobody that's going to hear it, and unless the choir is really bad or people start dropping from the gas, nobody is going to look around to figure out who dealt it.
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MUnRPI
New member
Re: Christ is Risen!
If you look for dates and discrepancies in the Bible we could be here awhile. Did you know Moses lived to be 120? Most of the Biblical numbers seem arbitrary but they were culturally based and symbolic. (i.e 40 days in the desert just meant a really long time) There was nothing in my post trying to analyze the logistics of the Resurrection or the continuity of the 4 gospels. Read again.
If you look for dates and discrepancies in the Bible we could be here awhile. Did you know Moses lived to be 120? Most of the Biblical numbers seem arbitrary but they were culturally based and symbolic. (i.e 40 days in the desert just meant a really long time) There was nothing in my post trying to analyze the logistics of the Resurrection or the continuity of the 4 gospels. Read again.
Foxton
Banned
Re: Christ is Risen!
Also it was 40 days on a mountain to get the first 10 commandments, when the jews messed up yet again, because god could never turn his back on his chosen people without them immediately running off to have flings with other deities, Moses had to go back and get 10 more after 40 more days. AND THEN! He literally tells them that they need to wander in a desert for 40 years until the bad generation has died off because those disrespectful ******** didn't want to attack Canaan. But that's okay because after those idiots were dead and the next generation of males were ready, they rolled through the area and took all the virgin preteen girls they could find as they killed off everyone else under direct orders from Jesus, or god, or however you throw the two or three together in their Ménage à trois of crazy.
A sincerely held belief is no protection from criticism, doubly so if you truly believe in this stuff. You should probably have a good reason or at least a decent understanding of it if you do. Apologetics and semantics games are about as low as you can get when defending a "sincere belief".
Give a definition of how you are supposed to decide if something is symbolic vs. literal and then this argument holds water.
Also it was 40 days on a mountain to get the first 10 commandments, when the jews messed up yet again, because god could never turn his back on his chosen people without them immediately running off to have flings with other deities, Moses had to go back and get 10 more after 40 more days. AND THEN! He literally tells them that they need to wander in a desert for 40 years until the bad generation has died off because those disrespectful ******** didn't want to attack Canaan. But that's okay because after those idiots were dead and the next generation of males were ready, they rolled through the area and took all the virgin preteen girls they could find as they killed off everyone else under direct orders from Jesus, or god, or however you throw the two or three together in their Ménage à trois of crazy.
A sincerely held belief is no protection from criticism, doubly so if you truly believe in this stuff. You should probably have a good reason or at least a decent understanding of it if you do. Apologetics and semantics games are about as low as you can get when defending a "sincere belief".
leswp1
Well-known member
Re: Christ is Risen!
The Jews at the time told stories to make a point, not to exactly state minute facts. They were not meant to be taken literally. We had an Intern Pastor who was a convert from Judiasm. He was the most fascinating guy- he explained a lot of the Bible from the Jewish standpoint. The Bible was written for the Jews at the time so much of the nuance is lost on modern day Christians. To the Jews of the time, and to this time too, alot of what was written made more sense to them. It is supposed to convey the underlying idea, not give minutia. The tree of Life/knowledge symbolized the knowledge of good and evil in more than a superficial way, the '40 days' phrase does not mean 40 days but the equivilent of a long time. The use of many of the numbers was based on tradition and prior stories, to tie things together, not to mean actually that number. This is equivilent to someone trying to translate coloquial English from a thousand years ago. If you lose the context the literal translation doesn't work well. If you know the background of the time it makes much more sense in the telling.
He did a great thing on why Genesis has 3 different versions of the creation story and what the point of each was. My favorite was when he did the one about Jesus driving the demons out of the herd of swine. He started with-"does anyone wonder why Jews were wandering around with a herd of swine? Jews don't do pig."
The Jews at the time told stories to make a point, not to exactly state minute facts. They were not meant to be taken literally. We had an Intern Pastor who was a convert from Judiasm. He was the most fascinating guy- he explained a lot of the Bible from the Jewish standpoint. The Bible was written for the Jews at the time so much of the nuance is lost on modern day Christians. To the Jews of the time, and to this time too, alot of what was written made more sense to them. It is supposed to convey the underlying idea, not give minutia. The tree of Life/knowledge symbolized the knowledge of good and evil in more than a superficial way, the '40 days' phrase does not mean 40 days but the equivilent of a long time. The use of many of the numbers was based on tradition and prior stories, to tie things together, not to mean actually that number. This is equivilent to someone trying to translate coloquial English from a thousand years ago. If you lose the context the literal translation doesn't work well. If you know the background of the time it makes much more sense in the telling.
He did a great thing on why Genesis has 3 different versions of the creation story and what the point of each was. My favorite was when he did the one about Jesus driving the demons out of the herd of swine. He started with-"does anyone wonder why Jews were wandering around with a herd of swine? Jews don't do pig."
Re: Christ is Risen!
The date is tied very deeply into the natural cycle of decay, rebirth, and renewal. Easter always falls on the Sunday following the first full moon after the vernal equinox.
Some people say the early Christian church tried to "co-opt" the earlier pagan religions by finding ways to use their holidays as its own, others see in it a reflection of Christ's teaching, in which the Ten Commmandments of the Old Testament were updated to the Two Commandments of the New Testament: they are not "co-opting" they are adding a new layer of sophistication over an existing layer of belief in the Divine.
The date is tied very deeply into the natural cycle of decay, rebirth, and renewal. Easter always falls on the Sunday following the first full moon after the vernal equinox.
Some people say the early Christian church tried to "co-opt" the earlier pagan religions by finding ways to use their holidays as its own, others see in it a reflection of Christ's teaching, in which the Ten Commmandments of the Old Testament were updated to the Two Commandments of the New Testament: they are not "co-opting" they are adding a new layer of sophistication over an existing layer of belief in the Divine.
Re: Christ is Risen!
I've never heard you provide a credible explanation for why people should behave well toward others.
I've never heard you provide a credible explanation for why people should behave well toward others.
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Christ is Risen!
Nobody brought a stone tablet etched with "if you hear the clothes dryer end its cycle, unload it, don't wait for your spouse to do it" down from a mountain, and I suppose there is no teleological reason to do so. But you're still a jerk if you don't. Doesn't take Duns Scotus to know that.
If believing in Christ is the thing that helps get you through the day without raping and murdering your neighbors then I am all for you continuing believing.
Well, nobody's ever actually provided a credible explanation for why people should behave well toward others.
Nobody brought a stone tablet etched with "if you hear the clothes dryer end its cycle, unload it, don't wait for your spouse to do it" down from a mountain, and I suppose there is no teleological reason to do so. But you're still a jerk if you don't. Doesn't take Duns Scotus to know that.
If believing in Christ is the thing that helps get you through the day without raping and murdering your neighbors then I am all for you continuing believing.
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Re: Christ is Risen!
That's funny, I seem to recall you saying in a different place that atheists could maintain (as Ben Franklin did in his Autobiography) that always telling the truth is expedient because then people will be more likely to trust you and so you can become involved in important co-operative projects. The only problem with the "expediency" argument is that it leaves a "loophole" if the stakes are high enough. Otherwise, it actually is a pretty compelling reason!
"Always behave in a trustworthy manner so that you will develop a reputation for being trustworthy. Always preserve that reputation because if you only violate it once, you forever create suspicion ever after."
In this case, I was tweaking Foxton for his bad manners, not trying to argue anything. He doesn't really "debate" anyway, he merely says "look at how smart I am compared to everyone else here."
That's funny, I seem to recall you saying in a different place that atheists could maintain (as Ben Franklin did in his Autobiography) that always telling the truth is expedient because then people will be more likely to trust you and so you can become involved in important co-operative projects. The only problem with the "expediency" argument is that it leaves a "loophole" if the stakes are high enough. Otherwise, it actually is a pretty compelling reason!
"Always behave in a trustworthy manner so that you will develop a reputation for being trustworthy. Always preserve that reputation because if you only violate it once, you forever create suspicion ever after."
In this case, I was tweaking Foxton for his bad manners, not trying to argue anything. He doesn't really "debate" anyway, he merely says "look at how smart I am compared to everyone else here."
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Christ is Risen!
I was interpreting "credible" in your statement as meaning to be rooted in undeniable objective reality. There is currently no such system for any "ought" statement. That's the world David Hume left us, like it or not. Personally I don't care for it and if anybody out there has a better idea I am all ears. In the meantime, Pragmatism is a stopgap measure.
It blows to live in the winter of a civilization. 500 years earlier or later and we would have been fine.
I was interpreting "credible" in your statement as meaning to be rooted in undeniable objective reality. There is currently no such system for any "ought" statement. That's the world David Hume left us, like it or not. Personally I don't care for it and if anybody out there has a better idea I am all ears. In the meantime, Pragmatism is a stopgap measure.
It blows to live in the winter of a civilization. 500 years earlier or later and we would have been fine.
Re: Christ is Risen!
Literal me, and here I thought "credible" meant something worth giving credence to.....
which is not quite so strong a standard.....a synomym for "trustworthy" while you are adding a layer of irrefutable to it as well, hence our differential responses.
Literal me, and here I thought "credible" meant something worth giving credence to.....
which is not quite so strong a standard.....a synomym for "trustworthy" while you are adding a layer of irrefutable to it as well, hence our differential responses.
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Christ is Risen!
Well, not so much "irrefutable" (since today's credible arguments will be refuted tomorrow) as "solid," "rooted," or "foundational." But you're right, I was taking your word and adding the thing to it that to me makes it interesting in the argument about deity -- "credibility" as ground; as the thing that stops an argument in its tracks.
During the ascendancy and triumph of an idea people who have thought it all the way through can still be sure. That is a confident period, great things are accomplished, and people, if not happier, are at least not fooling themselves.
In the idea's decadence, the only people left who are sure either haven't thought it all the way through or have deliberately ignored some of the facts for psychological reasons. That's when you know a particular God really is dead.
It was all fun and games when the gods that died were just magical. Now that the dying gods are reason and logic... not so much.
Literal me, and here I thought "credible" meant something worth giving credence to.....
which is not quite so strong a standard.....a synomym for "trustworthy" while you are adding a layer of irrefutable to it as well, hence our differential responses.
Well, not so much "irrefutable" (since today's credible arguments will be refuted tomorrow) as "solid," "rooted," or "foundational." But you're right, I was taking your word and adding the thing to it that to me makes it interesting in the argument about deity -- "credibility" as ground; as the thing that stops an argument in its tracks.
During the ascendancy and triumph of an idea people who have thought it all the way through can still be sure. That is a confident period, great things are accomplished, and people, if not happier, are at least not fooling themselves.
In the idea's decadence, the only people left who are sure either haven't thought it all the way through or have deliberately ignored some of the facts for psychological reasons. That's when you know a particular God really is dead.
It was all fun and games when the gods that died were just magical. Now that the dying gods are reason and logic... not so much.
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