What's new
By:
USCHO Fan Forum

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • The USCHO Fan Forum has migrated to a new plaform, xenForo. Most of the function of the forum should work in familiar ways. Please note that you can switch between light and dark modes by clicking on the gear icon in the upper right of the main menu bar. We are hoping that this new platform will prove to be faster and more reliable. Please feel free to explore its features.

Campaign 2016 Part XXIII: The Penultimate Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.
Re: Campaign 2016 Part XXIII: The Penultimate Thread

Hillary is a careful politician. She protected herself on both the Iraq vote and on DADT. She was not a profile in courage.

I don't think she's going to be a transformative president, but I don't think we especially need one right now. We need someone to solidify the gains under Obama and to firewall against the Deranged Ratf-uckers who have temporarily taken possession of the GOP. She will be great at that.

A Trump-supporting work friend asked me if I have a problem with her honesty and transparency and her ethics and I told him "not really." That seemed crazy to him, but my argument is that Hillary is a normal politician who happens to have attracted an insane level of demonization and paranoid conspiracy theorizing by every crank and crackpot on the right for the last 30 years (and on the far left during Bernie's run). In this case, where there's smoke there's an arsonist. I think she is less ethical than Obama because duh everybody in politics is, and she's more ethical than Nixon because duh everybody is. She is somewhere within one standard deviation plus or minus of the average for presidential nominees. Trump is six sigma deficient. No contest.
 
Last edited:
Re: Campaign 2016 Part XXIII: The Penultimate Thread

Handyman said:
BTW I forgot to thank you for posting that.
Click to expand...

It took me a while to finally come to that conclusion. I loved Arne Carlson as Governor. We've had good Republican Senators in Minnesota over the years. I think there are actually two things that made me be a one party voter more than anything and they happened at the State level.

1. The carefree way Tim Pawlenty and his administration brought about the downgrading of the State of Minnesota's credit. And how he balanced the budget using one time Tobacco money and borrowing from the school system. That's just NOT fiscally conservative. Watching that and how the Republicans on Capitol Hill handled the debt ceiling and the budget made me realize that while the Democrats may not be fiscally conservative at least they try to honestly pay the bills. Put that in with the Republicans always finding tax cuts everywhere for the 1% and the whole idea of the Republicans being the fiscally conservative party went out the window.

2. A few years ago when the Republicans took over the State Senate and the State House in Minnesota they decided the best use of their time in power was to spend it all on Voter ID and Gay Marriage. Both obvious losers. There were many many things that needed to be done budget wise and economy wise that they shelved in favor of those two issues.

Those two pretty much put the nail in the coffin for the Republicans for me. It's also why I will be supporting Terri Bonoff over Eric Paulsen. No matter how reasonable you think Eric Paulsen (John Kasich) is, he still votes party lines and the party lines of the Republican Party are pure insanity. I'm not one who is a fan of absolute power for one party but the GOP needs a market correction and it needs it badly. And, no matter what anyone tells you I don't think this Trump experience is going to do it for them. If the midterms come again and they get a wave we're going to stay in this same BS cycle for a long time.
 
Last edited:
Re: Campaign 2016 Part XXIII: The Penultimate Thread

On a trump theme, many of the interviewed supporters of him seem to be frustrated by the blockage going on in Washington, thinking that a severe outsider like him will actually fix things.

But that seems to defy logic.

First of all, why is there noting going on? Pretty universally, there is no compromise between the R's and the D's- particularly with the President. He has stated that the ACA could use improvement, but the only change that is being offered to throw it out. Which isn't a compromise at all. There's a big list of items that they don't work together for, and a small, but highlighted list of things they do work together on.

So, one can claim, pretty easily, that Republicans do nothing but block things- instead of starting a compromise path, they are all or nothing. Democrats do that, too- but when they were fully in charge of both houses- they forced themselves to compromise on a lot of items. But anymore- it seems as if both sides are purely reacting to each other negatively.

But what I don't get- how is it that trump is going to get anything done? Many of his high level items are not supported by R's, so those are going to be blocked. Others are not supported by D's, and those will be blocked. Just yesterday, he claimed he will rebuild Flint and Detroit- dude- for the 25 years I've lived in Michigan, most of the control has been in the R's hands, and they have LET BOTH CITIES SUFFER. How can any one buy into his claim that he's do something?

We've had outsiders push their way in for a long time- and all that seems to do is gum things up more. How is an outsider president going to change anything for the better??? I don't get that thinking what so ever.

Is there merit to the claim that trade has hurt- sure. Both sides address that. I don't see turning off NAFTA immediately as a good thing- it will throw a lot of trade that has been going on for a long time into total chaos. Chaos has never been good for businesses. Especially big ones that take a lot of time to set up.

And the concept that R's give a darn about workers?? Seriously? The same people who are cutting funds to cities to force them into bankruptcy so that they can get out of union contracts? These guys HATE workers, and HATE paying them decent wages. Have for thousands of years.

Anyway, the supporters that claim those ideas, I just don't understand.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 Part XXIII: The Penultimate Thread

Boom.

Yeah, yeah, "But Hillary is bad too!" Grow up. It's November now and in eight days one of those two will be the President-elect, whether you like it or not. Even if Hillary isn't perfect to your mind, picking anybody else is dangerously irresponsible.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 Part XXIII: The Penultimate Thread

Scooby,

Yeah I dont like Boniff at all (and think she is going to get trounced) but Paulsen is too socially conservative for me to vote for. Even if he is "just following party lines" that still puts him on the side of Anti-Gay Rights, Anti-Choice...etc. and I just cant vote for that. Minnesota is a place you can be a liberal GOPer so there is no excusing it. All that gets you is TPaw and we cant let that happen again around here.

The current incarnation of the GOP needs to die. Not because Republicans or even Righties are evil...but because all pragmatism within the party has been killed off and all we have now are the Fundies. What moderate voices exist had to shift uber Right just to avoid backlash and there is too much "falling in line" and not enough free thinkers. That isnt always bad, hell it helped them run politics for 30 years, but it only works if the top of the party is trustworthy and has the brains to make the system work. There is not one member of the Leadership in that party right now that has the balls or the brains to lead by example as proven by the fact that even when Drumpf's numbers tanked and he threatened to take Congress down with him, most of them couldnt find it in their heart to pull support from him. Hell half of them criticized him but still said they would vote for him...they are spinless jellyfish.

That was what I hated about the Dems most of my life (spineless, weak willed and never thought for themselves) and now the GOP is right there as well. They need to wake up because right now the PARTY OF REAGAN hates everything he stood for.
 
Last edited:
Re: Campaign 2016 Part XXIII: The Penultimate Thread

Handyman said:
PARTY OF REAGAN hates everything he stood for.
Click to expand...

True. However, one of the major things that Reagan brought to our democracy falls under the 6 reasons I won't vote Republican. Supply Side is morally, ethically, economically, mathematically, and logically wrong. When it was called Voodoo by his eventual running mate the running mate was right.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 Part XXIII: The Penultimate Thread

dxmnkd316 said:
Regarding DOMA and the past stance on the LGBT community, I think we've all evolved on the issue. Well, almost all of us. The vast, vast majority of Americans didn't support gay marriage back in the 90s. Even the left. Fortunately, the Democrats realized that it wasn't a choice, people were born gay. Once they recognized it, they started moving their policies.
Click to expand...

yeah, I came into adulthood in the late 90s when civil unions were becoming vogue. It seemed like a reasonable solution to me, and I guess maybe I bought into the "I don't care, just call it something other than marriage" thing. But then I realized that was stupid of me. They weren't really equal to a marriage, and anyway why the **** does it matter to me if gay people get get married? So in college, I guess 1999-ish, I decided civil unions were bad, full marriage equality was good. Much later, in Maine, our legislature and governor signed marriage equality into law (John Baldacci became the first governor to sign marriage equality into law in 2009. Until that point all other states legalized it through their supreme court or by legislative override of a governor's veto). Unfortunately the righties started a "citizen's veto" process, which involved collecting signatures and putting the new law up for vote. The veto passed, meaning the new law never went into effect. During the lead up to the veto, my manager (and friend) had said something like "I'd be okay with it but I am struggling with it being called marriage". He bought into the 'don't redefine marriage' argument. I said, basically, "why the **** does it matter if it is called marriage. If your church doesn't consider that a marriage, they don't have to do it. But what if some other church does want to include same sex couples in their definition of marriage? Or what about people getting married at city hall? That has nothing to do with a religious definition of marriage." He said "you're right", and he became a supporter of marriage equality (and made sure his 18 year old son went to vote during that mid-term election just to vote for marriage equality). He also quit going to church not long after that (a coincidence I think, his church did eventually embrace same sex marriage).

Who the **** hasn't evolved on an issue? The problem is one side, the Republicans, isn't evolving and has a significant faction that would still be happy to stone homosexuals to death.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 Part XXIII: The Penultimate Thread

Rover said:
I'm guessing nothing is going to satisfy you but consider the following. What was Reagan's accomplishments as Governor? Bush I as VP? Obama in the Senate? The point being you can pooh pooh anybody's accomplishments as "not doing all that much" going back eons. Hell, didn't FDR only serve one term as NY Governor?

With very few exceptions in the past century (LBJ - Senate President or Ike - Supreme Allied Commander during WWII) nobody would live up to the standard you're trying to set.
Click to expand...
Nonsense. Numerous candidates for President in recent years had distinguished public service careers before deciding to run for POTUS. A simple google search of the legislative accomplishments of people like Al Gore or Bob Dole will show how they actually treated the Senate like a job, like they were there to try to improve life in the country, not some sort of resume builder.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 Part XXIII: The Penultimate Thread

ScoobyDoo said:
True. However, one of the major things that Reagan brought to our democracy falls under the 6 reasons I won't vote Republican. Supply Side is morally, ethically, economically, mathematically, and logically wrong. When it was called Voodoo by his eventual running mate the running mate was right.
Click to expand...

And I agree with that but if the party was still closer to him in overall values (not just platitudes) they wouldnt be in the position they are now. Supply side is what it is (they are never going to be for paying any taxes) but Reagan was closer to center (no I am not saying he is a Centrist) than any of the clowns in the Party Leadership are now. Reagan worked with Tip O'Neill...Ryan wouldnt work with Obama or Hillary if they had the cure for Cancer and his wife was dying. Reagan was at least in part a pragmatist...
 
Re: Campaign 2016 Part XXIII: The Penultimate Thread

SJHovey said:
Nonsense. Numerous candidates for President in recent years had distinguished public service careers before deciding to run for POTUS. A simple google search of the legislative accomplishments of people like Al Gore or Bob Dole will show how they actually treated the Senate like a job, like they were there to try to improve life in the country, not some sort of resume builder.
Click to expand...

Okay, then what did Bob Dole accomplish for example in the Senate that made him more worthy for Prez than Hillary? A simple google search is fine, but I don't see much in the way of things he got done.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 Part XXIII: The Penultimate Thread

SJHovey said:
Nonsense. Numerous candidates for President in recent years had distinguished public service careers before deciding to run for POTUS. A simple google search of the legislative accomplishments of people like Al Gore or Bob Dole will show how they actually treated the Senate like a job, like they were there to try to improve life in the country, not some sort of resume builder.
Click to expand...

I have a friend from New York that thinks Hillary was a very effective senator for their state and in particular was able to introduce laws and amendments that helped various upstate industries (particularly wine, farming -- see also "Eggplant Caucus") as well as 9/11 recovery funding/first responder healthcare. In their opinion she got **** done that benefited New Yorkers and did not use the position simply as a resume builder for POTUS.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 Part XXIII: The Penultimate Thread

The dirty little secret on the Hill is that Republican Senators loved working with Hillary and thought she worked hard, was excellent at listening, was pragmatic, and sought consensus.

While on the campaign trail they are wailing and moaning and building a gallows for their empty-headed constituents, privately they respect her and can work with her.

The War on Hillary is strictly red meat for the apes. It's frightening how much of a disconnect there is between the Members and their plantation of carefully planted and cultivated hate-stoked voters.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 Part XXIII: The Penultimate Thread

FlagDUDE08 said:
Amazing how it's OK for left-wingers to "influence the outcome of an election", but not the right-wingers... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...I-withhold-Clinton-related-emails-source.html
Click to expand...

The sad thing is, there's no bomb. Again for the 6,000,000th time the GOP has failed to put any meat on the Clinton bone they've been gnawing on for over 30 years. At some point it's time to get some actual work done. Enough.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top