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Campaign 2016 Part XXIII: The Penultimate Thread

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Re: Campaign 2016 Part XXIII: The Penultimate Thread

If we are to apply Hovey's rules regarding Clinton's accomplishments, which really mirror Trump's argument to a T, whether intentional or not :rolleyes: then we need to apply them fairly. Hovey/Trump (again you're making the same argument, not that you love each other) are saying its Hillary's fault that she didn't stop the war in Iraq, reform the tax code, or prevent DADT. Okay, then since she didn't have the ability to do that herself, but shares in the blame of inaction, no problem. BUT, she then shares in the credit of bagging Bin Laden, balancing the budget, and the job growth of both the Clinton and Obama administrations with both followed bad Bush Presidencies. To not do so would expose a poster to charges of blatant partisanship, no? :D
 
Re: Campaign 2016 Part XXIII: The Penultimate Thread

And there's the Democrats' rallying cry. Again.

There has been no argument from me on that. Not at all.

Yet every time someone rips on Hillary, that phrase gets trotted out.

Maybe if you came up with something besides "I hate her and...ummm...EMAILS!!" people would engage more. Multiple posters multiple times asked you (and others) what you dislike so much about her. What policies or stances and the like. The only answers are the scandals. Well if the rallying cry of the Right is "SHE IS DA DEVIL!!!! BENGHAZI!!! BILL!!! EMAILS!!!!!!!!!!" (and dont fool yourself, that is 95% of it) why should The Left be any different? Especially when the Right's nominee spent half the last debate talking about how she has done nothing? (along with people around here) You cant have it both ways.

The thing of it is...almost every candidate has crap like this on their resume. That is part and parcel with the job. So why is it so bad for her but not for everyone else? All the people whining about the Clinton Foundation and "Pay for Play" were eerily silent about the Dubya Administration and the oil companies that got rich off the war. (while bilking the citizens with higher gas prices) Ronald Reagan's administration was pulling crap like that as was GHWB and I am sure Slick Willy as well. But Hillary does it and she might as well have murdered your dog. It is ridiculous. And the best part is, no other option will be less corrupt. The third party candidates are a joke and Drumpf is so corrupt it boggles the mind.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 Part XXIII: The Penultimate Thread

LOL. Does your butt hurt?

Let's put it this way. John Kasich is the best they have to offer and he is unacceptable to be President. I laid out a couple of weeks ago six reasons why I can't pull the level for a Republican. Until those 6 reasons go away in my mind they are all unacceptable. You will see how unacceptable they are after this election is won by Hillary Clinton.

BTW I forgot to thank you for posting that. I was having a conversation about the local elections with the fam last night and I totally broke it down similar to you. Many of the reasons you stated I completely agreed with on why despite being fiscally conservative in many ways I cannot and will not vote R.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 Part XXIII: The Penultimate Thread

Yeah. The reason Hillary supporters bring up her 'qualifications for the job' every time there's criticism of her...is because job qualifications, well, qualify one for a job.

And it seems to me that Trump and Trump supporters were the one's who just a few weeks ago where asking people to stop talking about personal issues...and start talking about governing.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 Part XXIII: The Penultimate Thread

If we are to apply Hovey's rules regarding Clinton's accomplishments, which really mirror Trump's argument to a T, whether intentional or not :rolleyes: then we need to apply them fairly. Hovey/Trump (again you're making the same argument, not that you love each other) are saying its Hillary's fault that she didn't stop the war in Iraq, reform the tax code, or prevent DADT. Okay, then since she didn't have the ability to do that herself, but shares in the blame of inaction, no problem. BUT, she then shares in the credit of bagging Bin Laden, balancing the budget, and the job growth of both the Clinton and Obama administrations with both followed bad Bush Presidencies. To not do so would expose a poster to charges of blatant partisanship, no? :D
I'm not saying it's Hillary's "fault." I'm saying she didn't even try to stop any of these things, and in some cases, actually supported the position you all now characterize as evil.

In the Senate she was one vote (one more than she'll have in January, by the way). I understand that. Sometimes you end up on the losing end. Take Paul Wellstone. There were a number of his positions that I didn't agree with, but at least he had convictions and the willingness to put them out in the public, win or lose. The reason his impassioned plea against invading Iraq failed was that it fell on deaf ears with Senators like HRC.

I'm willing to give her credit where credit is due. She certainly advocated for some victims and first responders of 9/11. I think an argument can be made that her plans cost a ton of money to benefit a very select, limited few, but I understand how pork barrel politics works and I don't necessarily fault Senators for doing that. But it's hard to say she has really improved the life of an average American with her work in the Senate, or even Sec of State for that matter. That's what I get for this person with decades of public service? Some health insurance for some people in Manhattan and Queens?

She wants "real immigration reform." A little late now. The Mexicans are all heading back to Mexico. She should have thought of that when her husband was in office.

She wants election financing reform and the overturning of Citizens United. Pardon me if I'm a little skeptical about this coming from a woman who has happily gorged herself at the trough of millions in campaign donations, sold influence in exchange for foundation donations and ran an airbnb out of the White House for her campaign contributors the last time she lived there.

The real problem here is, and you all know it but won't admit it, is that the position of POTUS is just the final square in her public service bingo card she wants to cover. But when her obit is written it'll look like the list Handy linked to earlier. She was class president here, chairperson there, and POTUS, but she really didn't do anything other than enable those in power who are already taking advantage of you.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 Part XXIII: The Penultimate Thread

Regarding DOMA and the past stance on the LGBT community, I think we've all evolved on the issue. Well, almost all of us. The vast, vast majority of Americans didn't support gay marriage back in the 90s. Even the left. Fortunately, the Democrats realized that it wasn't a choice, people were born gay. Once they recognized it, they started moving their policies.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 Part XXIII: The Penultimate Thread

Regarding DOMA and the past stance on the LGBT community, I think we've all evolved on the issue. Well, almost all of us. The vast, vast majority of Americans didn't support gay marriage back in the 90s. Even the left. Fortunately, the Democrats realized that it wasn't a choice, people were born gay. Once they recognized it, they started moving their policies.

At that point in time, "don't let them marry but otherwise let them be" was on the progressive side.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 Part XXIII: The Penultimate Thread


I hate that he called me a Dem :/

To be fair to Brent he wasnt very active in this thread before when Kepler and others were ripping her to shreds. He really didnt start posting until Bernie was already done and Drumpf was the GOPs Great White Hope.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 Part XXIII: The Penultimate Thread

At that point in time, "don't let them marry but otherwise let them be" was on the progressive side.

As Dan Savage (not the conservative radio guy, the sex advice column/radio show guy) said "Hillary Clinton _used_ to be terrible on marriage equality".

however, unlike the Republicans, she has come around. WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT GAY PEOPLE LIKE DAN WANTED.

Hillary Clinton's support for marriage equality may be a political calculation. And you know what? We worked hard to change the math so that those political calculations would start adding up in our favor. So sincere change of heart or political calculation—either way—I will take it.

It's ****ing moronic—it's political malpractice—to attack a politician for coming around on your issues.

...

If pols who are currently on the wrong side of any of those issues see no benefit to changing their positions—if they see no political benefit—they're going to be harder to persuade. Why should they come around on our issues, why should they switch sides or change their votes, if we're going to go after them hammer and tongs for the positions they used to hold? ("Please change your mind and support us." "No." "Pretty please?" "OK, I've changed my mind and I'll vote to support you." "**** YOU FOR NOT ALWAYS AGREEING WITH ME! I'M NOT VOTING FOR YOU! **** YOU SOME MORE!")
 
Re: Campaign 2016 Part XXIII: The Penultimate Thread

At that point in time, "don't let them marry but otherwise let them be" was on the progressive side.

As was Dont Ask Dont Tell...

Hell there are people like McCain who still want gays out of the military...even though the Military Leaders themselves tell them to pound sand about it.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 Part XXIII: The Penultimate Thread

I'm not saying it's Hillary's "fault." I'm saying she didn't even try to stop any of these things, and in some cases, actually supported the position you all now characterize as evil.

In the Senate she was one vote (one more than she'll have in January, by the way). I understand that. Sometimes you end up on the losing end. Take Paul Wellstone. There were a number of his positions that I didn't agree with, but at least he had convictions and the willingness to put them out in the public, win or lose. The reason his impassioned plea against invading Iraq failed was that it fell on deaf ears with Senators like HRC.

I'm willing to give her credit where credit is due. She certainly advocated for some victims and first responders of 9/11. I think an argument can be made that her plans cost a ton of money to benefit a very select, limited few, but I understand how pork barrel politics works and I don't necessarily fault Senators for doing that. But it's hard to say she has really improved the life of an average American with her work in the Senate, or even Sec of State for that matter. That's what I get for this person with decades of public service? Some health insurance for some people in Manhattan and Queens?

She wants "real immigration reform." A little late now. The Mexicans are all heading back to Mexico. She should have thought of that when her husband was in office.

She wants election financing reform and the overturning of Citizens United. Pardon me if I'm a little skeptical about this coming from a woman who has happily gorged herself at the trough of millions in campaign donations, sold influence in exchange for foundation donations and ran an airbnb out of the White House for her campaign contributors the last time she lived there.

The real problem here is, and you all know it but won't admit it, is that the position of POTUS is just the final square in her public service bingo card she wants to cover. But when her obit is written it'll look like the list Handy linked to earlier. She was class president here, chairperson there, and POTUS, but she really didn't do anything other than enable those in power who are already taking advantage of you.

I'm guessing nothing is going to satisfy you but consider the following. What was Reagan's accomplishments as Governor? Bush I as VP? Obama in the Senate? The point being you can pooh pooh anybody's accomplishments as "not doing all that much" going back eons. Hell, didn't FDR only serve one term as NY Governor?

With very few exceptions in the past century (LBJ - Senate President or Ike - Supreme Allied Commander during WWII) nobody would live up to the standard you're trying to set.
 
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