Campaign 2016 Part XII: What Have We Done To Deserve This?

[bronconick]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XII: What Have We Done To Deserve This?

I don't think you guys understand how ticked off people are over how the DNC and the Clinton campaign handled the primaries. A lot of them are staying home and a possible Trump Presidency only elicits a "maybe they'll listen next time."

How many of these people had wet nurses in 2000, and aren't old enough to remember " maybe they'll listen next time" ?

Apparently we have to learn this every 20 years. Stellar.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XII: What Have We Done To Deserve This?

How many of these people had wet nurses in 2000, and aren't old enough to remember " maybe they'll listen next time" ?

Beat me to it. Lots of Bernie Bros don't remember Indecision 2000.

 

[MaizeRage]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XII: What Have We Done To Deserve This?

I don't think you guys understand how ticked off people are over how the DNC and the Clinton campaign handled the primaries. A lot of them are staying home and a possible Trump Presidency only elicits a "maybe they'll listen next time."

No, I completely understand, which is why I call them idiots. How "DNC and Clinton campaign handled the primaries"? FOH.

Hillary was running against Bernie. What would you expect? As for the DNC, the only reason they were against Bernie and his policies is because they actually bothered to read them. The guy based his numbers on unprecedented 5% growth for four straight years, and still needed to find the one economist out of 10 that doesn't recommend Colgate to say his plan actually had a chance at working. Frankly, I applaud the DNC for trying to be the party of reason rather than turning into the mess that the RNC has become.

 

[Jimjamesak]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XII: What Have We Done To Deserve This?

Frankly what people are upset about are the "dirty tricks" pulled in Nevada and the like. It's an appearance of "they don't want us around so why the * should we vote for Hilary?" Frankly considering all that has happened I don't blame them, they've tried to engage and have been told shut up and to do what they're told.

The other part is Clinton does not represent what they stand for. To them there is no difference between Clinton and Trump. So what do they care if Trump wins or Clinton wins? And yes these are people in their 30s who lived through W.

It's honestly a separation of the Democratic Party. A large portion is a very left Liberal/Democratic Socialist that's like to join the rest of the world while the Establishment and Party Elite remains Third Way "Centrists" who still think "liberal" is a dirty word.

 

[Jimjamesak]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XII: What Have We Done To Deserve This?

For the record I don't share the view but this is from many who have campaigned for Bernie, voted for Bernie, and became State Convention Delegates for Bernie. IMO to dismiss them as foolish is to ignore at your peril and can easily see people like them staying home on Election Day being a factor in the result.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XII: What Have We Done To Deserve This?

This is being fought out right now among moderate and liberal Democrats. In my view, sanity is prevailing. There are eejits on both sides but they are small in number. Trump being the nominee also helps unify, because Bush On A Butt Plug nobody wants that.

 

[Rover]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XII: What Have We Done To Deserve This?

Frankly what people are upset about are the "dirty tricks" pulled in Nevada and the like. It's an appearance of "they don't want us around so why the * should we vote for Hilary?" Frankly considering all that has happened I don't blame them, they've tried to engage and have been told shut up and to do what they're told.

The other part is Clinton does not represent what they stand for. To them there is no difference between Clinton and Trump. So what do they care if Trump wins or Clinton wins? And yes these are people in their 30s who lived through W.

It's honestly a separation of the Democratic Party. A large portion is a very left Liberal/Democratic Socialist that's like to join the rest of the world while the Establishment and Party Elite remains Third Way "Centrists" who still think "liberal" is a dirty word.

Gotta call you out on this one. What "dirty tricks" in the NV caucuses? Hillary won the vote. Sanders people are threatening others with chairs and making death threats to party officials because they didn't understand the rules and want to overturn the will of the voters. That's acceptable behavior to you personally? Great...

Anybody who thinks Hillary = Trump is a fuking idiot. In fact, they're too stupid to have the right to vote, and thus should stay home. I'd rather have the reasonable Bernie supporters not prone to conspiracy theories and nonsense. We saw what happened in the GOP when the paranoid sect took control of the party. People like that can GET LOST. We don't need them to win. Last time I checked Hillary had outvoted Sanders by 3M votes, and when CA and NJ are done its going to be closer to 4M. That's a decisive choice by the rank and file, not a screw job. Grow up and act like an adult.

Sanders will get a few things it looks like. 1) DWS' head on a platter which we all can agree on (would live to see fellow VT'er Dean come back and run the thing), and 2) heavy input on shaping the party platform as I see a $15 minimum wage and moving towards a Medicare for all system over time. Other nonsensical stuff like banning fracking will be left off (not sure how we're better off being reliant on Russia and Saudi Arabia for energy in the decades it takes for clean energy to replace those energy sources).

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XII: What Have We Done To Deserve This?

Hillary hasn't been pulling dirty tricks. Bernie fans are just too stupid to understand the process. "It's not fair! I didn't know the rules! Waaaaaah!" Grow up. You sound like Donald Trump and his supporters.

If they don't fall in line, we're going to get Trump, and I'm going to blame that jackazz from Vermont.

I sure hope Bernie will enjoy a Naderian legacy of giving us a Trump.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XII: What Have We Done To Deserve This?

Gotta call you out on this one. What "dirty tricks" in the NV caucuses? Hillary won the vote. Sanders people are threatening others with chairs and making death threats to party officials because they didn't understand the rules and want to overturn the will of the voters. That's acceptable behavior to you personally? Great...

I just can't imagine why liberals would be hesitant to support Hillary with talk radio rhetoric like this being emitted by her campaign and regurgitated by her drone army.

Politics is inherently dirty. The parties are private entities that can do whatever they want. The officials of the DNC and its state arms have used procedural powers to exaggerate Hillary's advantages. I'm sure the same thing has been done for every party favorite going back to the 60s. To deny this is to admit an ignorance of how politics is conducted.

The "nothing to see here, move along" language is something that party PR is supposed to do -- that's their job. But nobody actually believes it.

tl; dr: The nom is not being stolen because Hillary is winning on the merits in a very close race. The way her campaign and the national and state organizations is going about it is business as usual, which is cynical, opportunistic, and somewhere between Louisiana corrupt and Putin corrupt. Which is to say, they are doing what every successful American campaign has done -- polite in public, bare knuckles in private. That's how the game is played.

 

[Rover]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XII: What Have We Done To Deserve This?

Hillary hasn't been pulling dirty tricks. Bernie fans are just too stupid to understand the process. "It's not fair! I didn't know the rules! Waaaaaah!" Grow up. You sound like Donald Trump and his supporters.

If they don't fall in line, we're going to get Trump, and I'm going to blame that jackazz from Vermont.

I sure hope Bernie will enjoy a Naderian legacy of giving us a Trump.

Was going to respond to Kep but this is perfect. Sanders has been given a free ride. Nobody attacks him amongst the corporate sellout shills he abhors in the name of party unity. He's raised plenty of money. We've had enough debates. Frankly the more exposure Sanders gets in the last few weeks the worse he's come off (he also might want to keep his campaign people off TV). Sanders lost fairly according to rules that have been in place since 1988. Anybody who says the DNC run by evil genius DWS (who'd screw up a one car funeral) cost Bernie the nomination makes me laugh out loud.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XII: What Have We Done To Deserve This?

Hillary hasn't been pulling dirty tricks. Bernie fans are just too stupid to understand the process. "It's not fair! I didn't know the rules! Waaaaaah!" Grow up. You sound like Donald Trump and his supporters.

Actually that sounds exactly like Hillary's troops when Obama's people schooled them on the rules in 08.

And that proves that lessons can be learned, and right now Bernie's foot soldiers are gaining the experience they'll need to push a future liberal candidate over the top. This has all happened before and it will happen again. Idealists enter the system and take it at its word that it is unbiased. Then they learn the hundreds of ways it is subject to cajoling, intimidation, bribery and other forms of "soft corruption." Some leave in disgust, but the hard nosed ones stay and learn how to win. Right now an entire generation of young liberals are learning how to win.

So when Hillary and the DNC play it on the edge we smile -- you are improving our fastball.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XII: What Have We Done To Deserve This?

Fracking is terrible and should be banned. Energy independence is not worth the damage it does. It is no better than burning coal except instead of ruining the air it ruins the water table and causes massive amounts of earthquakes.

As for the Bernie supporters, the few who do vote Drumpf will be offset by the GOPers that vote Hillary. (like the Bushes) The rest will stay home which is the proper way to do it anyways. Yeah sure they are filled with **** and vinegar now but in 2 months they will just walk away or write someone in. They arent going to vote D and they certainly arent going to vote R. Hillary isnt going to lose because of Bernie though I am sure her lapdogs will pretend that is the truth if she chokes this one away.

This year has really highlighted how cruddy the system is though. John Oliver nailed it on his show last week. The crap we have now is a joke.

The few minutes of Faux I could stand last night almost made me want to defend Hillary, and if this is indicative of how Drumpf is going to be (she is a horrible woman because Clinton cheated on her and NBC covered up the truth on things) then I think a lot of people who dislike her are going to be swayed. There is no doubt Drumpf is going to bully the crap out of her, it is the only game he has. That might be great for tying up the 50% of white men he plans to get it will guarantee he loses every other major demographic. Watching him stammer his way through ripping on her for her husband's inability to not screw ugly chicks is going to push the middle closer to her side. Christ it was working on me and I literally cant stand the woman...

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XII: What Have We Done To Deserve This?

Great. You improved your fastball. But you're 30 games back and we're in September in time for the call ups.

Regarding Hillary in 08, I really don't care. I'm for what's best for the country. I would have said the same thing if it was Hillary pulling what sanders is pulling. I did it with Obama back in 08. It was high time Hillary pulled out and threw her full support behind him much earlier. Lucky for us, it worked out in the end.

The problem this time is that the radical wing of the Dems are the ones threatening to take their ball home and fuk the country. The pragmatic wing was the group that could have been alienated in 08. They knew the consequences because they were old and had the wisdom to understand adult-level decisions.

I'm not so sure Bernie supporters, on the whole, have that sort of wisdom. if Obama had lost the primary last time, we could have been singing Hail to the Chief to President Palin right now.

Let that nightmare sink in.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XII: What Have We Done To Deserve This?

Was going to respond to Kep but this is perfect. Sanders has been given a free ride. Nobody attacks him amongst the corporate sellout shills he abhors in the name of party unity. He's raised plenty of money. We've had enough debates. Frankly the more exposure Sanders gets in the last few weeks the worse he's come off (he also might want to keep his campaign people off TV). Sanders lost fairly according to rules that have been in place since 1988. Anybody who says the DNC run by evil genius DWS (who'd screw up a one car funeral) cost Bernie the nomination makes me laugh out loud.

Leaving your silly snark aside, let's take flipping the result off the table. Do you admit the DNC has amplified Hillary's lead, or are you going to say with a straight face that you think the party has been utterly candidate-blind?

Yeah, I didn't think so.

These sweeping accusations against Bernie's followers have to rely on reductio ad absurdum, because otherwise the simple fact is the DNC is screwing him but he probably wouldn't have won anyway.

As for whether it's evil, no, it's just politics. It makes perfect political sense to these people that they are screwing him: (1) Hillary is closer to the politics of the aging DLC generation of professional Democratic apparatchiks, (2) they lack the courage of liberal convictions because they were so buttf-cked throughout the 80s, and so they are convinced Hillary is their best bet to win, (3) they know who butters their donor bread, and a legitimate left would take away a lot of those people's goodies and enrage them, and (4) they are looking forward to 2017 and beyond and they have been making quid pro quo agreements with Clintonistas for the last 3 (or 23) years.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XII: What Have We Done To Deserve This?

Hillary hasn't been pulling dirty tricks. Bernie fans are just too stupid to understand the process. "It's not fair! I didn't know the rules! Waaaaaah!" Grow up. You sound like Donald Trump and his supporters.

If they don't fall in line, we're going to get Trump, and I'm going to blame that jackazz from Vermont.

I sure hope Bernie will enjoy a Naderian legacy of giving us a Trump.

If they dont fall in line? It is bullcrap like that which is why they wont "fall in line". It is not their job to vote for whoever the Dems put up there, that is the crap we mock GOPers for doing. Selling out to vote for Hillary is no better than the GOP selling out to vote for Drumpf. They have the right, and the duty, to vote for who they feel is best...not who you think is best. It is crap like that which is why I will never join a party least of all the whiny Democrats.

And again, maybe if Gore wasnt a horrible campaigner who walked away from one of the most popular presidents of all time (not to mention had a reputation for "do as I say, not as I do" ) and wasnt despised by his home state he would have won. The crucifying of Nader further proves that Liberals never quite get it. They would rather browbeat their own and blame everyone else then accept the fact that maybe they were wrong.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XII: What Have We Done To Deserve This?

Great. You improved your fastball. But you're 30 games back and we're in September in time for the call ups.

Well, we're 20 games behind. But yes, that's actually a very good analogy. We're a much younger team -- our future looms great, but the present belongs to the Hillaries.

Hillary's going to win the league and it's 1966 so there are no divisions or wildcard -- she's going to the World Series. And I always root for the NL in the World Series (unless it's the Braves. F-ck those guys. They're Dixiecrats.) The Clintons are the Cardinals. They're so full of themselves you want to punch them in the face, and they pretend they're pure as the driven snow when in reality they're just like every other team and they only exist to sell d-ck pills and beer. But at the end of the day, they win.

Bernie's Mets have had a tough couple decades but we're back, right on the cusp. Wait til next year.

 

[Spartanforlife4]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XII: What Have We Done To Deserve This?

So it will be Bernie's fault that Hillary can't campaign well enough to win over members of her own party? Got it.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XII: What Have We Done To Deserve This?

If they dont fall in line? It is bullcrap like that which is why they wont "fall in line". It is not their job to vote for whoever the Dems put up there, that is the crap we mock GOPers for doing. Selling out to vote for Hillary is no better than the GOP selling out to vote for Drumpf. They have the right, and the duty, to vote for who they feel is best...not who you think is best. It is crap like that which is why I will never join a party least of all the whiny Democrats.

And again, maybe if Gore wasnt a horrible campaigner who walked away from one of the most popular presidents of all time (not to mention had a reputation for "do as I say, not as I do" ) and wasnt despised by his home state he would have won. The crucifying of Nader further proves that Liberals never quite get it. They would rather browbeat their own and blame everyone else then accept the fact that maybe they were wrong.

I think most of us did learn it. We are about to find out, though. I hope to hell we did, because Trump is an extinction event for democracy.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XII: What Have We Done To Deserve This?

So it will be Bernie's fault that Hillary can't campaign well enough to win over members of her own party? Got it.

I train for 15 years and throw 40,106 jabs and you deliver the knock-out with one punch?

 

[Handyman]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XII: What Have We Done To Deserve This?

Bernie is losing fair and square. There is no screw job. The system may be a complete joke but the system isnt why Bernie is losing. He doesnt have the votes plain and simple. It isnt exactly surprising, most people thought he would be out of the race by Super Tuesday.

Hillary should be able to win without his supporters. Drumpf aint flipping enough Obama States and most likely washes out at Mitt Romney numbers. If Hillary cant beat that then she should not be the candidate. She is going to have huge margins in every major minority and should do no worse than a split in the white males. If you cant win with the Blacks, Latinos, Women and middle and Left White Males that isnt on Bernie and his merry band of Democratic Socialists (many of whom wouldnt be voting if he wasnt running) it is on Hillary and the failed campaigning of the Democratic Party Elite.